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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 26, 2017 11:45:52 GMT
This seems to be spiralling downwards fairly quickly. I have to agree that the entitlement here is way too much. First off, $60-100 dollars for the 'full package'. Well if we're doing that, why not complain that warmachines entire range is upwards of $2000! No, we need perspective. A faction deck is $9, the COI deck is $3. A faction deck of cards was $20. Whoever said that warroom is more expensive now is wrong. Would you like to buy all 12 factions? Now you're comparing $85 to $240. The barrier to entry is $0! No one is asking you to pay for cards or rules. What is being asked is that you pay a minimal amount, $12 dollars to use their app. But what if you want all the cards! Do you really play 12 factions? Then $85 dollars is the least of your spending. Do you have the internet, access to battle college, privateer presses website, friends to share with? Then use the many free routes to check out other armies if that's your desire. Are we really complaining about $3! That's jist ludicrous and this thread is going nowhere. I think the problem might be with the price model. Now that the cards are available for free online, it does seem strange to charge for individual decks, when what you're actually paying for is really the functionality and convenience. I think people would find it easier to swallow if instead, the base app was free, as it is now and then you pay say $20 to use the full range of abilities in the app (full cards, maybe extra features) and then perhaps another $10 for the CoI addon. This is still an app, that is no more than a companion app for a game, and objectively speaking $100 is extremely steep for that.
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Post by jonnyboy on Oct 26, 2017 12:45:21 GMT
This seems to be spiralling downwards fairly quickly. I have to agree that the entitlement here is way too much. First off, $60-100 dollars for the 'full package'. Well if we're doing that, why not complain that warmachines entire range is upwards of $2000! No, we need perspective. A faction deck is $9, the COI deck is $3. A faction deck of cards was $20. Whoever said that warroom is more expensive now is wrong. Would you like to buy all 12 factions? Now you're comparing $85 to $240. The barrier to entry is $0! No one is asking you to pay for cards or rules. What is being asked is that you pay a minimal amount, $12 dollars to use their app. But what if you want all the cards! Do you really play 12 factions? Then $85 dollars is the least of your spending. Do you have the internet, access to battle college, privateer presses website, friends to share with? Then use the many free routes to check out other armies if that's your desire. Are we really complaining about $3! That's jist ludicrous and this thread is going nowhere. I think the problem might be with the price model. Now that the cards are available for free online, it does seem strange to charge for individual decks, when what you're actually paying for is really the functionality and convenience. I think people would find it easier to swallow if instead, the base app was free, as it is now and then you pay say $20 to use the full range of abilities in the app (full cards, maybe extra features) and then perhaps another $10 for the CoI addon. This is still an app, that is no more than a companion app for a game, and objectively speaking $100 is extremely steep for that. It's an app sure, but you also get the entire rulebook. Rulebooks, i think, in all tabletop games go for a pretty penny, same thing with army books. With PP handing those things out for free they need a way to recoup the costs of development.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 26, 2017 12:50:04 GMT
I can understand a "I dont want to buy this" reaction. What I dont understand is the "This is GW Level evil/Slimy/Bs" comments. I hope this game is good. If it is, it is because some effort has been made while making it. If PP has made some effort, they need to get their Money back. Since they cant get their Money back form most of us by making us buy miniatures (which I Guess is their normal way to get Money) they have to get it in oanother way. Agreed. It's a really strange kick back. It costs more to get a Costa than to grab the faction decks, in fact it costs more to buy a minn unit of kossites than it does to buy the full deck, yet the deck is going to serve me 1000% better than the kossites will. Here is some perspective: You buy kossites at the beginning of mk3, you pay the full price and use them with the promise that they will be useable in game for an entire edition. Then PP comes out with a 99% similar sculpt but they have different hats for company of iron only. PP says "you can only use the new kossite sculpt in COI games. The old kossite sculpt is not useable in COI" Its not a perfect example but it is similar. I said multiple times I am fine paying for the COI specific rules. I am not fine being forced to pay for my entire faction deck again (that I already payed money for and was promised they would be up to date for all of MK3 edition) Sure it may seem like a meaningless complain to some people. But I think it is warranted. It is, beyond a doubt a cash grab. You pay 60+ dollars for the COI box (depending on who you buy it from) and then you need to go into war room and pay another 20 dollars just to use the app. Can you imaging paying 20 dollars for an app? especially after paying 60+ for the boxed rules? If yes...kudos to you. If no, than you are like most people who think paying 20 dollars for an app per person is ridiculous. Especially considering you already spent a good chunk of money (expenditure may vary) on the app. Overall the entire cost of the app if you pay for it is 105 dollars per person if you buy the bundles. For a utility app for a game with an already hefty price tag, it seems obnoxious. Even the Games workshop Skubmar app lets you use models rules for free. It just charges you for the different systems. Also as far as "rules are free they need to compensate" They chose to make the rulebooks free and I know for a fact that while war room is a good tool, it is not 100+dollars per person worth of goodness. All they have to do is upload cards they make anyway into the app, and add some cute features for damage tracking and list building. It is an excellent tool. But its cost just seems just silly.
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Post by slaughtersun on Oct 26, 2017 12:56:01 GMT
Perhaps i missed it but does the new upgrade binary still breaks the app or is it now fixed?
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Oct 26, 2017 13:01:15 GMT
I don't understand why people are talking like they force you to buy every faction's worth of cards. Buy the faction(s) you own, it's less than $20, and when you play against a faction you don't own they still show up in Fight mode. At what point did PP demand you spend a minimum of $20 to use the app?
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Post by krigsol on Oct 26, 2017 13:28:29 GMT
I don't understand why people are talking like they force you to buy every faction's worth of cards. Buy the faction(s) you own, it's less than $20, and when you play against a faction you don't own they still show up in Fight mode. At what point did PP demand you spend a minimum of $20 to use the app? I suspect that the people complaining have a completionist bent. They suffer from Fear Of Missing Out.
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Post by krigsol on Oct 26, 2017 13:35:51 GMT
Cashgrab is so incredibly overused. What's so negative about PP trying to sell a game they spent time developing? I mean really. They release the rules and cards for free in a very accessible format, and then they charge for them in another, and people call it a cash grab. IF THEY WANTED TO GRAB YOUR CASH THEY WOULD NOT BE RELEASING IT ALL FOR FREE. Geez people. The entitlement level in here is off the charts. Thr war room price is the problem, not the product itself. They want to sell a boxed set with models for $100 bucks? Sure, that's a full-inclusion stand-alone game. They want to sell the cards+rulebook for $15? Sure, that's a tangible product that you're paying for, and gives you actual playing tools that will be more comfortable to use. But to charge players for the 'convenience'(I use that term very loosely) of having it in war room when the rules will be online for free anyways? That's nonsense. War Room has always been scummy since it's inception. Already owned the cards? Too bad, buy them again, but don't worry it's a one-time cost! New edition? Fine-print, motherFiretruckers, pay it again. And now after not mentioning anything about a war room price the entire time they were working on COI, they want everyone to buy whole decks AGAIN in war room. It's slimy. They have to outsource to a third party in order to develop and update War Room. It is an overhead cost that is not accounted for in their own labor hours. PP employees are already paid to develop rules, make cards, etc. It doesn't cost them anything extra to put them online, it is only a lost opportunity cost. When they push out a software upgrade in War Room, though, they are purchasing the services of Tinkerhouse. They have to recoup those costs through the deck purchase. If there are people that come in and only start playing Company of Iron, they have to either: release the cards for free, which means they are now paying to develop War Room without recouping costs; or they make people buy the decks from the Warmachine side, which costs more than the decks in CoI, and includes many, many cards that aren't even valid in the game (all warcasters and models with large or huge bases). Neither of these are viable scenarios. Making people pay little for their faction's CoI deck is the best compromise. I'm not sure what would have changed for you if they had "announced" the $3 per deck in War Room earlier, though. Was there a pot of paint you wouldn't have bought in order to account for it in your Warmachine budget?
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Post by jisidro on Oct 26, 2017 13:40:57 GMT
This seems to be spiralling downwards fairly quickly. I have to agree that the entitlement here is way too much. First off, $60-100 dollars for the 'full package'. Well if we're doing that, why not complain that warmachines entire range is upwards of $2000! No, we need perspective. A faction deck is $9, the COI deck is $3. A faction deck of cards was $20. Whoever said that warroom is more expensive now is wrong. Would you like to buy all 12 factions? Now you're comparing $85 to $240. The barrier to entry is $0! No one is asking you to pay for cards or rules. What is being asked is that you pay a minimal amount, $12 dollars to use their app. But what if you want all the cards! Do you really play 12 factions? Then $85 dollars is the least of your spending. Do you have the internet, access to battle college, privateer presses website, friends to share with? Then use the many free routes to check out other armies if that's your desire. Are we really complaining about $3! That's jist ludicrous and this thread is going nowhere. I don't understand why people are talking like they force you to buy every faction's worth of cards. Buy the faction(s) you own, it's less than $20, and when you play against a faction you don't own they still show up in Fight mode. At what point did PP demand you spend a minimum of $20 to use the app? This is WMH, you have to know the other armies. It's BS to say otherwise. Apps at $100 is BS. Games that cost more to make than Hollywood blockbusters don't cost $100. More OT. Either COI is a different game and you have to buy a box or a deck to play or it is the same as WM/H and you get in warroom. Mixing it up on release is asking for free bad publicity which they got. A friend had a curous perspective on this... GW is making a new gamw with minis you can use in the old games (He was talking about shadowspire) and PP is making a new game to use old minis...
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Post by krigsol on Oct 26, 2017 13:47:58 GMT
This seems to be spiralling downwards fairly quickly. I have to agree that the entitlement here is way too much. First off, $60-100 dollars for the 'full package'. Well if we're doing that, why not complain that warmachines entire range is upwards of $2000! No, we need perspective. A faction deck is $9, the COI deck is $3. A faction deck of cards was $20. Whoever said that warroom is more expensive now is wrong. Would you like to buy all 12 factions? Now you're comparing $85 to $240. The barrier to entry is $0! No one is asking you to pay for cards or rules. What is being asked is that you pay a minimal amount, $12 dollars to use their app. But what if you want all the cards! Do you really play 12 factions? Then $85 dollars is the least of your spending. Do you have the internet, access to battle college, privateer presses website, friends to share with? Then use the many free routes to check out other armies if that's your desire. Are we really complaining about $3! That's jist ludicrous and this thread is going nowhere. I don't understand why people are talking like they force you to buy every faction's worth of cards. Buy the faction(s) you own, it's less than $20, and when you play against a faction you don't own they still show up in Fight mode. At what point did PP demand you spend a minimum of $20 to use the app? This is WMH, you have to know the other armies. It's BS to say otherwise. Apps at $100 is BS. Games that cost more to make than Hollywood blockbusters don't cost $100. More OT. Either COI is a different game and you have to buy a box or a deck to play or it is the same as WM/H and you get in warroom. Mixing it up on release is asking for free bad publicity which they got. A friend had a curous perspective on this... GW is making a new gamw with minis you can use in the old games (He was talking about shadowspire) and PP is making a new game to use old minis... With the cards available online for free, it's a completely unnecessary preference to buy them in the app if you're not actually playing with them in war room. You could make the PDF and toss it onto whatever tablet you use to view War Room if you didn't want to print them out. In reality, either CoI uses the same cards and there's no reason at all for you to buy them again beyond your chosen faction, or they're different cards and there's every reason to charge you for them again. Also, the minimum barrier of entry into Shadespire is $60. Compared to CoI, which is $9 for a War Room faction and print on demand command cards.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Oct 26, 2017 13:49:14 GMT
You don't have to know other armies for CoI though. The tournament-obsessed community keeps telling you you do, but you don't, because CoI is not a competitive game. Let me repeat that for you:
COMPANY OF IRON IS NOT A COMPETITIVE GAME.
There is no tournament ruleset for CoI. There are no national tournaments. There are no prizes.
It's a narrative game, not a tournament game. You don't need to spend hours and hours memorizing every model in it (you don't have to do that with Warmachine/Hordes either but that's a dead horse at this point) because at no point are you going to be practicing for an event on deathclock with prestige or money or whatever on the line.
It's a narrative game with like 13 models per side, just ask to see your opponents rules when you start playing and play the game. Not every game is a Firetrucking research commitment. If tournament play is what you care about then it seems very likely that Company of Iron is not for you.
There, now you don't have to spend any money at all.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 26, 2017 13:58:41 GMT
except company of iron is a way to dip into other factions so you will probably want to buy all the cards so you can play those other factions. Also, it can be a tad frustrating if you have alreayd spent 80+ dollars in war room to "own" all the faction decks and then PP goes "oh btw we know you spent 80 dollars on this here are some "revised" versions you have to pay another 20 for...I mean come on man. That just seems so sleezy to me.
We are allowed to have a problem with it. Call us entitled but I just think its greedy and seems very "DAY 1 DLC" ish for me. Pay extra money on release day to play the game you just forked 60+ dollars for to play more conveniently.
It seems like the people who don't think having to pay is a problem are getting the most worked up over this discussion. Which amuses me. I think everyone needs to just sit back, drink some kind of beverage and calm down.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 26, 2017 14:06:35 GMT
I intend to show my displeasure by never playing Company of Iron, these mini-games can go die in a house fire, I would rather PP spend the time making the actual game work
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Post by krigsol on Oct 26, 2017 14:11:44 GMT
except company of iron is a way to dip into other factions so you will probably want to buy all the cards so you can play those other factions. Also, it can be a tad frustrating if you have alreayd spent 80+ dollars in war room to "own" all the faction decks and then PP goes "oh btw we know you spent 80 dollars on this here are some "revised" versions you have to pay another 20 for...I mean come on man. That just seems so sleezy to me. So buy them when you decide to "dip into" them. Again: it's $3. It costs more to add blue paint to a single model than to buy a faction deck for CoI. Or, just download the cards for free once they go up.You do not need to buy every faction right now. You just want to. You're complaining that things cost money, when you not only don't need to buy those things at all, but those things are also available for free anyway. I will repeat myself: They have to outsource to a third party in order to develop and update War Room. It is an overhead cost that is not accounted for in their own labor hours. PP employees are already paid to develop rules, make cards, etc. It doesn't cost them anything extra to put them online, it is only a lost opportunity cost. When they push out a software upgrade in War Room, though, they are purchasing the services of Tinkerhouse. They have to recoup those costs through the deck purchase. If there are people that come in and only start playing Company of Iron, they have to either: release the cards for free, which means they are now paying to develop War Room without recouping costs; or they make people buy the decks from the Warmachine side, which costs more than the decks in CoI, and includes many, many cards that aren't even valid in the game (all warcasters and models with large or huge bases). Neither of these are viable scenarios. Making people pay little for their faction's CoI deck is the best compromise. You are allowed to have a problem with it all you want. But people are allowed to point out that you're being overdramatic by doing so, and that your reasons for having the problem are incorrect by ignoring all context to the situation. And no, sorry, if you post a thing online people are allowed to disagree with you. That is how a discussion board works. I'm not sure at all where you're getting $60 from. Even if you bought the entire War Room set for every faction that you don't have, that's $20. The cards in the shop are $15 + shipping. That's $35. But you only need to buy your faction ($3) plus the command cards from Drive Thru RPG ($6).
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Oct 26, 2017 14:23:51 GMT
I'll admit I got worked up there, I'm just really, really, incredibly sick of the tournament-focused culture's insistence that their way to play is the "right way".
"This is WMH, you have to know the other armies. It's BS to say otherwise."
No, you don't, no, it isn't. Warmachine/Hordes is not only tournaments, Company of Iron is literally 0% tournaments. Stop insisting that because YOU choose to focus solely on tournament play and that you and others you talk to have decided that the only way to do that is to study every card in the game like you're cramming for a final that that is the One True Way to play Privateer Press' games. It's not, it never has been, and it never will be. You can trot out all the same arguments for it being primarily a tournament game, or tournament players being either the largest population or biggest spenders or whatever, but it's not the only way to play.
Company of Iron has specifically been stated by the creators as being a non-competitive game. There is not and never will be an official tournament document for it, officially-run tournaments, or official tournament prize support. It is a light, quick game for playing narrative scenarios over an hour or so. You do not need to know every other army in order to play the game, which means that complaining that it's necessary to spend $20 and get every army is completely disingenuous. If you chose to buy the bundle it is because you want every army, not because anyone is forcing you to do it.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 26, 2017 14:29:11 GMT
You are allowed to have a problem with it all you want. But people are allowed to point out that you're being overdramatic by doing so, and that your reasons for having the problem are incorrect by ignoring all context to the situation. And no, sorry, if you post a thing online people are allowed to disagree with you. That is how a discussion board works. I'm not sure at all where you're getting $60 from. Even if you bought the entire War Room set for every faction that you don't have, that's $20. The cards in the shop are $15 + shipping. That's $35. But you only need to buy your faction ($3) plus the command cards from Drive Thru RPG ($6). And you saying I am wrong is just as much of an opinion. Saying I am incorrect because I am not thinking of context...eh not really I know they outsource, I know it costs money, I also know it is not unreasonable to want to have the faction cards available on the COI side of the app after purchasing the faction decks on the regular side. It would not be difficult to have a "bundle" for new players to either purchase the faction deck (which includes the COI cards) or you can just purchase the COI cards by themselves and save some money. I also never said people are not allowed to disagree with me. I just said it was amusing that the people who are most worked up are the people who did not have a problem with the purchase system in the first place. If my opinion makes you upset...thats your problem. Also...telling people their opinion is wrong is a problem discussion board not "hey you disagree with me but I see the contextual evidence this way so because you don't see it that way mean you are WRONG" is not a discussion haha. I am assuming people purchased the box set, to acquire all the tokens, and rules, and command cards. because I am taking it form the perspective of a day 1 purchase. If you did not plan on ordering the boxed set (which I actually thought was a good deal) than you pay 10-20 dollars in war room on rules which as I said earlier is OK if it was just the rules for COI but it is not. It is also the rules for all of the faction cards most of us have already payed for. I will say again, when was the last time you paid 10-20+ dollar for half on an app? HubertJFarnsworth I get the whole "don't need to own every faction deck argument." Honestly I do. Unless you actually own that faction, it is way more sensible to just download the pdf. My issue has never been "gotta buy em all" I just wish I had access to my faction cards I already payed for. I don't even expect the COI command cards and rulebook for free. It would have just been nice to fiddle around with some lists on war room and make sure I liked the game enough before dropping 10 or 20 bucks on it. Now we know a day later that cards will be available for free (right?) but in war room, you still have to buy faction deck, even if all you really need is the COI rules. I would just have preferred the option of it.
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