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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 12:55:56 GMT
Countered by what? The Coven player will not leave any models with walk and melee range of any of his Banes on feat turn, they may let you have some models within walk + 5" to shoot, but you are at -2 rat and shooting arm 20 Cavalry so unlikely to achieve much (apart from maybe trigger Vengeance).
Maybe the Echoes should not contest, I am happy to have that discussion, but Covens feat is probably the strongest in the game now
By shooting from outside of the control range or by having guns/spells that ignore LoS. I know it's not very broad, but it's about as ubiquitous as RAT 6+ Blessed boostable magical guns able to deal 27 damage in one shot (14 ARM + focus + Arcane Shield). And it's not just about contesting, but they give the whole army +2 DEF and effectively +2 MAT while also doing quite some work by themselves. And the only way to sort of control them is by killing them every turn. I'm playing devil's advocate, but as stated above, it's definitely true that she's hard to play. I played Haley 3 once as a non-Cygnar player and was horrible with it, but a player that knows her well is extremely hard to deal with. Shooting outside of control range is not feasible, a good Coven player will run the Egregore balls deep on feat turn to cover a massive area, if you are far back enough to shoot in you are most likely conceding too much board space and will just lose on scenario.
The only types of shooting that ignore LOS off the top of my head is Ghost Shot and Phantom Barrage from MHSF, which will both be at -2 rat and shooting arm 20 models with 5 boxes...not great.
I will admit maybe I am not the most practised Haley 3 player at the moment, and maybe as I gain more experience my opinion will change, but at the moment I don't see her as an insurmountable problem or NPE.
edit: or maybe I am biased 'don't touch my toys! nerf something else!'
edit again, as pointed out MHSF don't ignore LOS completely, and Ghost shot does not ignore Stealth, so the unit with Occultation and the unit in the Veil of Mists cloud are still fine, are there any other types of shooting that ignore LOS I am missing?
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Post by elladan52 on Oct 18, 2017 13:04:07 GMT
Phantom Barrage does not ignore LOS wholesale, only for forests, clouds, and intervening models.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 13:06:19 GMT
Phantom Barrage does not ignore LOS wholesale, only for forests, clouds, and intervening models. cheers, my case is now stronger
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Post by celeb on Oct 18, 2017 13:22:35 GMT
That is exactly my case. The Coven Feat has no counterplay. Ghost Shot is rare and the other way of ignoring LoS is Phantom Hunter, but that is on casters and then you are still suffering from -2 RAT. You won't stand out of it, either or lose on scenario. Clouds, on the other way can be played around at least a bit and the DEF that Haley3 brings is very strong, but Blessed is still more common than Ghost Shot and hit-fixing is pretty common. The Echoes contesting is also something that is likely too strong.
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Post by Azuresun on Oct 18, 2017 14:10:34 GMT
That is exactly my case. The Coven Feat has no counterplay. Ghost Shot is rare and the other way of ignoring LoS is Phantom Hunter, but that is on casters and then you are still suffering from -2 RAT. You won't stand out of it, either or lose on scenario. Clouds, on the other way can be played around at least a bit and the DEF that Haley3 brings is very strong, but Blessed is still more common than Ghost Shot and hit-fixing is pretty common. The Echoes contesting is also something that is likely too strong. I think all Incorporeal models need to be non-scoring and non-contesting.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 14:52:10 GMT
At first I thought that might be going a bit far. But It actually takes care of a lot of BS. It definitely deserves a second thought.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 19, 2017 2:49:32 GMT
As I said earlier, I have no issue with anything on Covens card. Their feat isn't significantly worse than any of the other shutdown feats. Maybe because I play Skorne and we have many ways of dealing with it? IDK, ambushing units tend to scare the crap out of them though and everyone has access to those now.
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Post by celeb on Oct 19, 2017 7:13:38 GMT
Ok, then tell me which card I've been reading wron in my Retribution. There are no Ambushing units. I n my opinion, their feat is worse than most other shutdown feats, let's compare a bit.
Haley2: Way more manageable after the update. Zerkova1: gets close to Coven, but no -2 to MAT and RAT and shorter control range Vindictus: Only works on Warrior models and you can still shoot at him with magical weapons. Also, no -2 MAT and RAT. Also, AOEs and Sprays still work. Kaelyssa: AOEs and Sprays still work. No -2MAT and RAT. True sight is way more common than Ghost Shot Wurmwood: Smaller Area of effect and again, no -2 MAT and RAT (Concealment might be seen as -2 RAT) Grim: Doesn't shut down ranged attacks Rask: Gets very close, but still, no -2 MAT and RAT
So yes, think that Coven and Denny1 have significantly stronger control feats.
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Post by novaspike on Oct 19, 2017 17:21:39 GMT
I agree with pretty much everyone that Denny1 needs a change. Make her feat d3+5 (like her goodie-two-shoes sister) and I think it's more tolerable.
I don't agree with a Coven or Skarre1 nerf though (at least, not any I can think of off the top of my head).
Both Coven and Skarre1 were nerfed going into Mk3. Skarre1 feat is now only on selected, cut-for, models, as opposed to everything. And Coven got hit right at the end of Mk2 with the shadowbind change, and then perfect conjunction was nerfed (even if it is a tiny bit easier to pull off now). What always gets me is that other than Coven getting a couple of small nerfs, they are basically unchanged from Mk2, where they were considered a mid-tier caster at best. Really the meta changed around them, and they were brought to the forefront because they were the only Cryx anti-gunline tech (at the time).
What I consider a counter to Coven is fast models that can boost, or be MAT buffed. In Cygnar, a battlegroup heavy Kraye list can get quality attacks where they need to be. Legion and Ret have pretty fast, accurate stuff too. Hell, most cav models have the speed. The LOS part is an issue, but if you can start outside the feat, you can charge in and have the boosted MAT. Regardless, the witches themselves are still super squishy. In Mk2, I was playing against Irusk2 and he managed to put an airburst over all three on MY feat turn, and then proceeded to spike damage and kill all three...without boosts. Even lobbing blast damage at them can be pretty dangerous for them. And they HATE fire. List-wise too, they tend to not be very good at cracking armor, having a single -ARM debuff. I think them making everything hard to pin down movement-wise is one of their strongest assets.
All that aside, what kind of changes would you make to try and rein in their feat? Just LOS blocking, drop the MA/RAT part? That makes their feat purely a delivery and alpha-blunter, but that's still pretty servicable.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 19, 2017 17:55:57 GMT
Good opponents with good positioning are what make covens feat oppressive.
Bad opponents that have bad positioning tend to make it unimpressive.
If you can walk into range of more than a few banes on a coven feat turn and not be balls out exposed for a bunch of mat 7 pow 11 dark shrouded weaponmasters to get shoved down your throat (or also very common high pow boosted mat 7 bane riders) your opponent is playing coven wrong. I would be even recommend making the feat not affect models with eyeless sight. At least then you have counter play.
As far as their feta not being worse...
Haley 2 was nerfed so nothing to see here.
Denny 1 has a similar feat effect but you can do a little more because you can actually SEE things (trades off with the debuffs though at least it is not a cannot shoot feat) It has a little counter play.
Ragnor: Bring high enough pow and you can at least do damage. Bring Grevious wounds and you don't need to kill them...also...trolls...also it does not say no to you for a turn and believe it or not there is counter play.
Wurmwood: Similar but no mat rat debuff. Also only a 10" range. Also can be ignored by tracker/ mage sight/ aka has counter play
Rask: similar but only a 12" range (that is a HUGE difference to frikking 18...) and no mat rat penalty. He is also way less survivable and cannot play forward much like coven can.
Basically coven has a disgusting control feat with very very very little counter play that does not rely on your opponent being a dodo. it does not really expose itself for a problem until you see it/experience it in person. Its pretty awful to watch happen.
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Post by novaspike on Oct 19, 2017 18:26:14 GMT
Well, most jacks/beasts can still trample to get where they want. If you're really worried about banes (like in say, dark host) then most of what's out there is going to be small based. And the standard infantry answers still work on the banes (e-leaps, sprays) on feat turn, you just need to be positioned better beforehand for it. If you're playing vs Coven, you KNOW your going to see the feat turn 1 or 2 depending on your army composition and who goes first.
I'll ask again, what's the solution to change then? Remove the LOS part of the feat? Other than it removes the flavor, then Coven just become straight inferior to Denny in every way. Have each witch and Egregore feat in CMD? I don't have the CMD values on me, but I'm almost sure that all four of them have a CMD of less than 10, and even if they did, at 10 it's easy to just walk back or not even be in the bubble and shoot the crap out of whatever. Which defeats the whole point of having the LOS block component. You can make a similar arguement about Wurmwood, but it's really not comparable; there are maybe the smallest handful of models that can see through forests, but nearly every gun worth taking can see through stealth (which the Coven will have to be clusterd around Egregore to get anyway). The most elegant solution might be something like have each model have to be B2B with Egregore in order to add their focus to the control for the feat. That means that Egregore can't just run as far as possible and have one of the witches feat last. That at least lets them keep their uniqueness without forcing them to become a unit.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 19, 2017 19:25:43 GMT
novaspike once again. If you position models properly even a trampling jack or beast is gonna have problems killing more than a few banes without getting molested in return. If you invest a heavy to kill 2 or 3 banes (that can come back with the minifeat btw) you are losing the game....sprays need LOS and would be great...if they were not at -2 rat. Making most models with sprays rat 4 and making it hard to kill the banes. Also there are only 2 factions with EASY access to eleaps, circle and cygnar so that doesn't exactly seem like a solution. The best thing you can do if you do not have; boostable high rat sprays, eleaps in spades, some really quirky and rare way of not needing LoS, you just cannot do much of anything worthwhile against a good player on a coven feat turn but back off. The issue is a scenario issue. Coven feat forces you to either: A; take a bunch of banes to the face and stay up on attrition B: back off and lose a decent turn (turn 2 is important!) Thats just not fun to play against and if coven was not an issue they would not be pooping all over everyone in the denny 1 tag team. As far as a solution? I think its a very precarious situation because I actually really like coven because they are so unique (yeah I know it seems like I hate them) so I do not wan't to see them nerfed into the ground. Having said that I have 2 major problems with Coven: 1: The feat is oppressive 2: They are really really really hard to assassinate I have a few solutions but I honestly I am trying to keep them pretty minimal: For the feat: 1: Remove the -2 mat and rat clause (giving sprays and melee attacks more ability to work around the feat) or 2: Models in covens control area gain stealth enemy models currently in covens control area suffer -4 to attack rolls if targeting a model in the covens control area with a ranged attack. (turning the feat into a delivery feat.) for the survivability: 1: reduce each which to 5 boxes (that would take away 9 boxes of damage from the unit making it riskier to commit the coven and making it easier to burn through their boxes while camping.) or 2: Overboosting the powerfield must be done before damage is allocated to the witches. (this would stop the silliness of transferring a hit that did 15 damage to each which and then overboosting all 15 damage away.
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Post by novaspike on Oct 19, 2017 20:29:58 GMT
macdaddy I apprciate the replies. I wasn't trying to come off as combative, but I was wondering what kind of specific changes people were looking at.
I could agree with the MAT/RAT debuff coming off. It does give an extra f-you to an already pretty hard hitting feat. And the overboosting does seem like a get out of jail free card as is. Could be something as simple as adding a bit to the sympetheic link (Egregores rule, if I screwed up the name), "damage dealt via this rule cannot be reduced".
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 19, 2017 20:32:56 GMT
@ Well, most jacks/beasts can still trample to get where they want. If you're really worried about banes (like in say, dark host) then most of what's out there is going to be small based. And the standard infantry answers still work on the banes (e-leaps, sprays) on feat turn, you just need to be positioned better beforehand for it. If you're playing vs Coven, you KNOW your going to see the feat turn 1 or 2 depending on your army composition and who goes first. I'll ask again, what's the solution to change then? Remove the LOS part of the feat? Other than it removes the flavor, then Coven just become straight inferior to Denny in every way. Have each witch and Egregore feat in CMD? I don't have the CMD values on me, but I'm almost sure that all four of them have a CMD of less than 10, and even if they did, at 10 it's easy to just walk back or not even be in the bubble and shoot the crap out of whatever. Which defeats the whole point of having the LOS block component. You can make a similar arguement about Wurmwood, but it's really not comparable; there are maybe the smallest handful of models that can see through forests, but nearly every gun worth taking can see through stealth (which the Coven will have to be clusterd around Egregore to get anyway). The most elegant solution might be something like have each model have to be B2B with Egregore in order to add their focus to the control for the feat. That means that Egregore can't just run as far as possible and have one of the witches feat last. That at least lets them keep their uniqueness without forcing them to become a unit. So...no.
First off, as I've mentioned, the most common Dark Host lists are running two units of Bane Riders, which threaten further than any beast/jack I know of can trample. Even if you DO get a beast there, it's probably only killing two of them at most, due to -2 MAT(with bought attacks)...which triggers vengeance. The riders then move around the beast/jack, take their vengeance attacks on it, then proceed to charge past it into the rest of your army (which curse of shadows making sure they get maximum value from impact attacks.) The Bane Warriors following up behind them clean up whatever you committed to the Bane Riders. Seen it happen plenty of times. And that's not even touching on the fact that trading a beast/jack for a few cavalry isn't a good trade to begin with. Seen this happen plenty of times.
You can run to engage...but then the coven casts Curse of Shadows on the jamming unit, and the Bane Riders charge off regardless. So you need to commit two overlapping units to jam effectively, and the coven can still drop Veil of Mists to make a hole, on top of putting curse of shadows on one unit. It's REALLY hard to jam effectively when they have those two tools, and an army that completely ignores free strikes.
As for starting outside the area of the feat...that's laughable, unless you picked off a witch turn 1. The coven has an 18" control range, measured from the Egregore...which can run on the turn they feat. The thing can be midfield on the bottom of Turn 1, projecting it's bubble very nearly into the opponent's deployment zone (10" deploy +12" run + 18" feat = 40", or 1" outside the deployment zone on the leading edge. Staying that far back will lose you the game on scenario just as easily as backing off during feat turn will.
You keep talking about how they were a 'mid-tier caster' in mk2, but you're completely ignoring the tools they got (new Bane Riders are exactly what they wanted - fast, hard hitting units with ghostly to abuse CoS and veil of mists.) You're also ignoring the fact that, outside of Cryx, nearly every hard control caster saw (or has since seen) some kind of nerf. Control casters are often the best counter to a lot of control casters (Old Haley2 counterfeating on Coven was nasty,) and when Cryx is the only remaining faction with 'hard' control casters...
As to possible nerfs, I don't entirely disagree with macdaddy. The feat needs to be less oppressive, they need to be possible to assassinate with some degree of reliability (they're spellcasters, not the damn Butcher, and due to the way their control area works they can play even further back than most spellslingers, not even having to come forward on feat turn) and I would also consider swapping Curse of Shadows for something less stupidly synergistic with Bane Riders, though I suspect that the real problem THERE is that Bane Riders came out of CID overtuned, and need a nerf themselves.
As to the damage thing, I'd like to see damage to the egregore treated like transfers from a warlock. You hit the egregore, it assigns the damage to a witch. The witch can spend a focus. If they die, the remaining damage spills over onto another witch. Maybe allow them to spend a focus too, maybe not, but at the very least it would let you reliably kill a witch before they can spend additional focus to reduce damage. Reduce them to 5 boxes each, or nerf the feat so that you have a chance of putting damage on the Egregore on feat turn, and you've got an appropriately fragile backline spellslinging warcaster.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 19, 2017 20:35:57 GMT
Honestly mt.motivation for the game has dropped drastically. One of my main opponents plays Cryx. I have little desire to continue playing against ghost fleet or dark host with either of my convergence or legion. Partly because I know both my lists are going to do pretty bad against black industries. That means I have to play list chicken with cryx every time. In mk2 I had a cryx list to deal with regular dudespam, now I need two cryx lists to cover vastly different matchups. For one list I need magic weapons, ranged rfp, and a caster that can't be assassinated. For the other list I need ways to deal with coven and massed banes which means I can't use heavies because they die easily and I need to not lose on scenario. But I can't use guns, which were my previous plan, because I can't kill arm22 heavies in the other theme. So I have to use melee infantry, but no-one does melee infantry better then Cryx. It's definitely a frustrating time for me. You're not the only one. I've heard this from others as well. It's straight up the worst parts of MKii list chicken to a new extreme.
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