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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Oct 17, 2017 21:29:05 GMT
I know I posted earlier, and I don't want to sound like I'm piling on, but I do want to point out that every game goes through release cycles. The devs only have so much time and production schedules are set months in advance; someone has to be first (or fourth in this case) and someone has to be last, that's just how it is. Eventually we'll be seeing complaints that "Mercs is getting a CID even though Cygnar hasn't had a release in over a year!" and the cycle will begin again.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 17, 2017 22:05:10 GMT
PP tuning down other powercaster and themes, and even a few which where not OP, but leaving cryx unchanged, has left me bewildered. In our meta Its also having an impact. The cryx players are running rampant in the tournaments, and other players are angry for having to build not one anti cryx list but two.
Doesnt help that cryx is having the most themes, some of the best themes, and several which are competative.
i must also admit im a little tired of the argument that everything will be better. Mrk.3 has been sort of a betatest phase since its release IMO. Themes are going the wrong direction IMO. More free stuff more OP. Gives me huge GW flashbacks
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 18, 2017 0:58:11 GMT
The fact that I'm being the burst of positivity here is strange...
Maybe they didn't hit any of the Cryx bits super hard because, wait for it, they'll be included in the CiD? Throwing Coven and Denny1 in the CiD won't significantly alter the workload AND you'll get better results than the somewhat spotty Dynamic Update alterations. We all generally agree that the casters are the problem in those lists rather than their constituent parts.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 18, 2017 1:17:24 GMT
The fact that I'm being the burst of positivity here is strange... Maybe they didn't hit any of the Cryx bits super hard because, wait for it, they'll be included in the CiD? Throwing Coven and Denny1 in the CiD won't significantly alter the workload AND you'll get better results than the somewhat spotty Dynamic Update alterations. We all generally agree that the casters are the problem in those lists rather than their constituent parts. I'm not convinced they'll show up in the CID. The majority of players in any given cycle are players of the faction undergoing CID, which makes it an awkward place to nerf models. It's easier to swallow unreleased models being toned down, because there's no entrenched history with those models to make adjustments awkward. The same reasoning for why Haley2 was nerfed in a dynamic update rather than taken through the Trencher CID would apply equally for Cryx Warcasters, I suspect.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 18, 2017 2:07:02 GMT
And yet Stormlances came through well. Pp has yelled at the community before about ignoring a model in CiD and then gotten OVERWHELMING responses regarding it. Will Work for Food was broken to start, you didn't see a vast and terrible effort to keep this info from the devs. Most people want to play the best game possible, not having brokenly powerful crap is a great step in that direction.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 18, 2017 2:40:20 GMT
Honestly, I only saw about two Minions players actually say that WWFF was problematic during the entire CID, and I repeatedly saw them get shouted down by other Minion players who feared that the naysayers were "spoiling it for the rest of us". PP ultimately took away Advance Move not because of balance issues, but because they only realised at the last minute that Arkadius could get sprays into deployment zones on the top of one with that theme. And that's with something new, something that doesn't exist yet, where feelings are less entrenched.
Point taken on the Storm Lances, although Haley2 was also coming up a lot in that cycle and she was done internally.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 18, 2017 2:40:50 GMT
They're not wrong about the attention. Cryx is the only faction that got 2 CIDs so far. We got through Themecreep and now CIDcreep is the reality we live in. Up to you if you want to quit over that. To me it's not a gamebreaking issue as long as they continue to errata the broken stuff. Banes was part of the christmas CID IIRC, when everyone was getting something new. We've known what the theme CID schedule was for months. Cygnar, trolls, minions, cryx, legion, then probably khador, circle, mercs (likely crucible guard). CID is based on model releases, set far in advance of knowing how this meta comes out and frankly its your best option if you want Denny1 fleet addressed at all. Pissing and moaning about it is a sign that someone hasn't put more than a reflexive whining sounds worth of thought into it.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 18, 2017 2:48:48 GMT
Banes was part of the christmas CID IIRC, when everyone was getting something new."..." and frankly its your best option if you want Denny1 fleet addressed at all."..." Not trying to start anything but banes did have their own cid. It overlapped with the BE Cid though if I am correct I do agree on this may be the only chance to "fix" the terrible triad in cryx right now and I plan on playtestng like a mad man to try and help resolve the issue in a way that doesn't' end up making a bunch of cryx players salty.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 18, 2017 2:59:15 GMT
People are going to be salty. Its the only universal constant in a wargame. If OP's group is gonna dissolve over it, no big deal IMO. Sucks for OP but people holding ill-informed and unrealistic expectations don't deserve the energy to soothe and the minute a company does it snowballs down the mountainside like a warner brothers cartoon.
Edit: I mean if blowing up their own forum and implementing a process that amounts to "you'll give us feedback in this format, on the things we're asking about or you can pound sand" doesn't wake people up to how useless internet forum complaints are at implementing change....
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 18, 2017 3:09:42 GMT
I mean Dennys problem is strait power. The fact that she can use anything to kill anything (yes, ghost pirates killing mammoths feels exactly as stupid as the scene from Return of the King was). It's a bit too much. She just needs to lose a step, just one and maybe step on a rake but that's it. Coven is a mechanical issue being a "special snowflake caster non-unit solo conglomeration thing" that is deeply exacerbated by SR17. Every other portion of them I can live with. Honestly, make them a unit and I'm cool with it.
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Luebbi
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by Luebbi on Oct 18, 2017 7:24:19 GMT
I agree. An internal ARM swing of -5, which can easily be pushed to -7 with faction tools breaks the power curve. Was it at an old WTC where a single Satyxis killed a Legion Angelius on a charge? Stuff like that should not happen in my opinion.
I remember when the first spoilers for MK3 came out, I was bewildered that her Feat effect still stacked with crippling grasp and/or parasite. That would be one thing that I'd love to have looked at.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 18, 2017 7:37:02 GMT
I agree. An internal ARM swing of -5, which can easily be pushed to -7 with faction tools breaks the power curve. Was it at an old WTC where a single Satyxis killed a Legion Angelius on a charge? Stuff like that should not happen in my opinion. I remember when the first spoilers for MK3 came out, I was bewildered that her Feat effect still stacked with crippling grasp and/or parasite. That would be one thing that I'd love to have looked at. Single Satxyis have a POW 9 and POW 8 attack, with a -7 swing (which is already not "a single Satyxis" because you need Dark Shroud support), those go to POW 16 and 15 respectively, the Satyxis is now effectively MAT 8 (feat), so needs 6's to hit with one attack at -1 damage and another at -2, the Angelius has 25 hit points in MK3 according to battlecollege. If you roll boxcars on both attacks, after hitting a 6 twice (pretty likely that you'll miss one), then you deal 17+10 damage, 2 more than the Angelius has hp. If they used Crippling Grasp instead of Parasite (which you probably should as hitting would be more important), you actually need to roll all 6's or not kill it. So indeed, if you roll insanely well you can one round anything you want, that doesn't mean you can actually use it as evidence.
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Post by pangurban on Oct 18, 2017 7:50:27 GMT
I mean Dennys problem is strait power. The fact that she can use anything to kill anything (yes, ghost pirates killing mammoths feels exactly as stupid as the scene from Return of the King was). It's a bit too much. She just needs to lose a step, just one and maybe step on a rake but that's it. Coven is a mechanical issue being a "special snowflake caster non-unit solo conglomeration thing" that is deeply exacerbated by SR17. Every other portion of them I can live with. Honestly, make them a unit and I'm cool with it. I seem to recall a dev stating somewhere they will not change the Coven's mechanics as a model group, but I can't immediately find a reference. Regardless, as you say it's the way this interacts with SR2017 that makes it problematic. That might change with the new SR package (which makes changing the models possibly premature), or if I had any say in it it'd change with an immediate erratum to the current SR.
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Luebbi
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by Luebbi on Oct 18, 2017 7:54:13 GMT
Or how about you factor in gang - hitting 4's is far more likely than 6's, and it's still one Satyxis that attacks. The damage numbers are still unlikely, of course - The Cryx player should really send in two of his 1.6 point models to kill the 17 point Angelius in this example.
Anyway, I'm aware that the above was an outlier - to be honest I even think this was back in Mark 2, back when they had power swell. I merely used it to demonstrate the ridiculous efficiency even basic troops can achieve under Denny1's feat. The way the dice curve works, +/- 2 or 3 is a significant bonus already. -5 to -7 just plays Havoc with the entire system, in my opinion.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 18, 2017 7:57:14 GMT
Or how about you factor in gang - hitting 4's is far more likely than 6's, and it's still one Satyxis that attacks. The damage numbers are still unlikely, of course - The Cryx player should really send in two of his 1.6 point models to kill the 17 point Angelius in this example. Anyway, I'm aware that the above was an outlier - to be honest I even think this was back in Mark 2, back when they had power swell. I merely used it to demonstrate the ridiculous efficiency even basic troops can achieve under Denny1's feat. The way the dice curve works, +/- 2 or 3 is a significant bonus already. -5 to -7 just plays Havoc with the entire system, in my opinion. They also didn't have Gang back then, but CMA.
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