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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 9:27:04 GMT
I for one am looking forward to the -9 armour swing in Slaughter Fleet Raiders (Feat, Parasite, Gang Fighter, Dark Shroud from Ragman), pow 21 Stalkers anyone?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690 
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 9:33:11 GMT
Or Mat10 POW26 (or Mat12 POW25) on ILO Seethers. That's in BI though. Things can get pretty gross with enough modifiers.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 18, 2017 10:03:35 GMT
I mean Dennys problem is strait power. The fact that she can use anything to kill anything (yes, ghost pirates killing mammoths feels exactly as stupid as the scene from Return of the King was). It's a bit too much. She just needs to lose a step, just one and maybe step on a rake but that's it. Coven is a mechanical issue being a "special snowflake caster non-unit solo conglomeration thing" that is deeply exacerbated by SR17. Every other portion of them I can live with. Honestly, make them a unit and I'm cool with it. I seem to recall a dev stating somewhere they will not change the Coven's mechanics as a model group, but I can't immediately find a reference. Regardless, as you say it's the way this interacts with SR2017 that makes it problematic. That might change with the new SR package (which makes changing the models possibly premature), or if I had any say in it it'd change with an immediate erratum to the current SR. I just don't want them being able to both score 3 separate zones/flags without involving their army at all AND do weird shenanigans with bleeding off damage to Egregore which is supposedly their weakness, but not really. Special rule, updated SR, whatever. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 10:16:36 GMT
I seem to recall a dev stating somewhere they will not change the Coven's mechanics as a model group, but I can't immediately find a reference. Regardless, as you say it's the way this interacts with SR2017 that makes it problematic. That might change with the new SR package (which makes changing the models possibly premature), or if I had any say in it it'd change with an immediate erratum to the current SR. I just don't want them being able to both score 3 separate zones/flags without involving their army at all AND do weird shenanigans with bleeding off damage to Egregore which is supposedly their weakness, but not really. Special rule, updated SR, whatever. I doubt PP would change the mechanics of how the Witch Coven work, they seem very proud of their unique function, just like they do with Haley 3, and I think they would be loathe to change that.
Their feat is now arguably the strongest control feat in the game now, it provides virtual immunity for a turn, allows for very aggressive scenario play which is king in SR17. Plus the army it delivers can pretty much tear the arse out of anything.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 10:24:40 GMT
Funny that you mention Haley3. I'm fairly certain she'll be what people complain about in 1-2 months. Calling it now.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 10:27:35 GMT
Funny that you mention Haley3. I'm fairly certain she'll be what people complain about in 1-2 months. Calling it now. Ha Ha, she is very good to be sure, I am trialling her in Storm Division and have been impressed so far, but at least you get to play a game against her |
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 18, 2017 10:34:09 GMT
The parallel being that she also interacts with scenarios in a way that she really, really shouldn't.
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Post by dazzla on Oct 18, 2017 10:49:27 GMT
I do not play Cryx but I hope that Cryx is not nerfed, or if it is only very lightly.
I am a big supporter of the idea that PP should rebalance when needed, but only in small increments.
My concern is that the game right now is in too much of a state of flux to adjust anything towards a sustainable balance. Let the themes settle down.
Also, the increase in anti-upkeep tech will of itself tone down some of the Cryx casters.
There seems to be too much change. Time to settle down and enjoy what is a very good game.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Oct 18, 2017 11:37:02 GMT
Funny that you mention Haley3. I'm fairly certain she'll be what people complain about in 1-2 months. Calling it now. Ha Ha, she is very good to be sure, I am trialling her in Storm Division and have been impressed so far, but at least you get to play a game against her Ermm.. no. Maybe you suck with her?  Kidding aside, she is too strong at the moment. Hale3 is a sleeper, and probably the most powerful caster in the game hands down once Denny1 is nerfed. Actually, she might be even better. The thing is, Hale3 is very hard to play so she looks fair. But there are quite a few legit builds for her, and for example the "cloud wall" list isn't fun for anyone unless you're having specific tools for that. Sound familiar? NPE written all over her. I mean if you want to get rid of Denny1, which I'm also on board with, there are similar things in the game still flying under the radar of GF hate, and Hale3 is definitely one of those. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 11:40:38 GMT
I do not play Cryx but I hope that Cryx is not nerfed, or if it is only very lightly. I am a big supporter of the idea that PP should rebalance when needed, but only in small increments. My concern is that the game right now is in too much of a state of flux to adjust anything towards a sustainable balance. Let the themes settle down. Also, the increase in anti-upkeep tech will of itself tone down some of the Cryx casters. There seems to be too much change. Time to settle down and enjoy what is a very good game. A higher prevalence of upkeep removal will not really help against Cryx that much, most of the damage has been done once your turn rolls around again. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 11:45:22 GMT
Ha Ha, she is very good to be sure, I am trialling her in Storm Division and have been impressed so far, but at least you get to play a game against her Ermm.. no. Maybe you suck with her? Kidding aside, she is too strong at the moment. Hale3 is a sleeper, and probably the most powerful caster in the game hands down once Denny1 is nerfed. Actually, she might be even better. The thing is, Hale3 is very hard to play so she looks fair. But there are quite a few legit builds for her, and for example the "cloud wall" list isn't fun for anyone unless you're having specific tools for that. Sound familiar? NPE written all over her. I mean if you want to get rid of Denny1, which I'm also on board with, there are similar things in the game still flying under the radar of GF hate, and Hale3 is definitely one of those. I am staying away from the cloud wall builds for the time being as we play 50 minute Deathclock tournaments at my club as standard and I will just end up clocking myself.
Haley 3 is not better than Coven I think, Clouds can be countered, defence from spells can be countered, Covens feat is just a big middle finger
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Post by Aegis on Oct 18, 2017 11:55:39 GMT
Ermm.. no. Maybe you suck with her? Kidding aside, she is too strong at the moment. Hale3 is a sleeper, and probably the most powerful caster in the game hands down once Denny1 is nerfed. Actually, she might be even better. The thing is, Hale3 is very hard to play so she looks fair. But there are quite a few legit builds for her, and for example the "cloud wall" list isn't fun for anyone unless you're having specific tools for that. Sound familiar? NPE written all over her. I mean if you want to get rid of Denny1, which I'm also on board with, there are similar things in the game still flying under the radar of GF hate, and Hale3 is definitely one of those. I am staying away from the cloud wall builds for the time being as we play 50 minute Deathclock tournaments at my club as standard and I will just end up clocking myself.
Haley 3 is not better than Coven I think, Clouds can be countered, defence from spells can be countered, Covens feat is just a big middle finger
Also, the change to Lynus&theElf seems to be made exactly to nerf perfect cloudwalls like Haley3's one. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 18, 2017 12:29:02 GMT
Ermm.. no. Maybe you suck with her? Kidding aside, she is too strong at the moment. Hale3 is a sleeper, and probably the most powerful caster in the game hands down once Denny1 is nerfed. Actually, she might be even better. The thing is, Hale3 is very hard to play so she looks fair. But there are quite a few legit builds for her, and for example the "cloud wall" list isn't fun for anyone unless you're having specific tools for that. Sound familiar? NPE written all over her. I mean if you want to get rid of Denny1, which I'm also on board with, there are similar things in the game still flying under the radar of GF hate, and Hale3 is definitely one of those. I am staying away from the cloud wall builds for the time being as we play 50 minute Deathclock tournaments at my club as standard and I will just end up clocking myself.
Haley 3 is not better than Coven I think, Clouds can be countered, defence from spells can be countered, Covens feat is just a big middle finger
By that reasoning, line of sight can also be countered and I don't know about you, but I think many people have issue with having to kill two DEF18+ Incorporeal models every turn, especially if they can hide behind clouds. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 18, 2017 12:37:03 GMT
I am staying away from the cloud wall builds for the time being as we play 50 minute Deathclock tournaments at my club as standard and I will just end up clocking myself.
Haley 3 is not better than Coven I think, Clouds can be countered, defence from spells can be countered, Covens feat is just a big middle finger
By that reasoning, line of sight can also be countered and I don't know about, but I think many people have issue with having to kill two DEF18+ Incorporeal models every turn, especially if they can hide behind clouds. Countered by what? The Coven player will not leave any models with walk and melee range of any of his Banes on feat turn, they may let you have some models within walk + 5" to shoot, but you are at -2 rat and shooting arm 20 Cavalry so unlikely to achieve much (apart from maybe trigger Vengeance).
Maybe the Echoes should not contest, I am happy to have that discussion, but Covens feat is probably the strongest in the game now
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 18, 2017 12:45:58 GMT
By that reasoning, line of sight can also be countered and I don't know about, but I think many people have issue with having to kill two DEF18+ Incorporeal models every turn, especially if they can hide behind clouds. Countered by what? The Coven player will not leave any models with walk and melee range of any of his Banes on feat turn, they may let you have some models within walk + 5" to shoot, but you are at -2 rat and shooting arm 20 Cavalry so unlikely to achieve much (apart from maybe trigger Vengeance).
Maybe the Echoes should not contest, I am happy to have that discussion, but Covens feat is probably the strongest in the game now
By shooting from outside of the control range or by having guns/spells that ignore LoS. I know it's not very broad, but it's about as ubiquitous as RAT 6+ Blessed boostable magical guns able to deal 27 damage in one shot (14 ARM + focus + Arcane Shield). And it's not just about contesting, but they give the whole army +2 DEF and effectively +2 MAT while also doing quite some work by themselves. And the only way to sort of control them is by killing them every turn. I'm playing devil's advocate, but as stated above, it's definitely true that she's hard to play. I played Haley 3 once as a non-Cygnar player and was horrible with it, but a player that knows her well is extremely hard to deal with. |
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Kidding aside, she is too strong at the moment. Hale3 is a sleeper, and probably the most powerful caster in the game hands down once Denny1 is nerfed. Actually, she might be even better.
