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Post by macdaddy on Oct 18, 2017 18:19:08 GMT
I don't know much about coven from mk2 as I never encountered them and they were rarely played in my meta so I don't really have a response to how much they took in the bum in the transition. Perhaps if I had played against them them I would have a more rounded out perspective of them. My biggest issue with them is they are bonkers hard to assassinate and their feat is pretty atrocious in dark host.
I figured you were joking! I actually think circle is not nearly as awful as some people let on. Been playing since mid mk2 so while I felt the sting of the transition i still have had a blast playing them in Mk3 and have a pretty decent win record with them. Most of my losses are more due to silly mistakes rather than the weakness of the faction.
My only experience with cryx from MK2 was Denny 1 and the odd gorehsade or gaspy list. Lots of satyxis and banes and feats/spells that just turned off your army. It was pretty awful. Then I started playing Bradigus Wold war and felt less bad when I would play cryx players....One of the best games I had in mk2 was with Bradigus wold war into Denny1 Satyxis everywhere. By turn 2 I had whip biddies all in my face jamming me and a good number of heavy hitters staring me down. Luckily Bradigus was pretty bonkers back then so the game ended up fairly close. Needless to say I found some of the nerfs in the change to be rather warranted but I think they went a little hard on faction fragility. It was painfully obvious in early mk3 that cryx was really easy to remove from the table.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 18, 2017 18:49:57 GMT
The Coven resilience is definitely stronger than it was in MKII.
I actually love playing my Circle, but I'm the only (right now) veteran Cryx player locally so I don't face much (and there's no ghost fleet around here, who I think is the real culprit). Coven is the mohsar of Cryx, and my favourite caster. They've definitely taken a hit, although I've yet to yank them out in SR2017 which I suspect really helps.
Dark host seems like a really bad fit for them to be honest. The coven do nothing to fix MAT in a faction that has notorious bad MAT. I've seen them tear it up in ghost fleet, and I can see great opportunities in most other themes, but they're wasted on Dark Host.
-und_ed
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 18, 2017 19:55:46 GMT
The Coven resilience is definitely stronger than it was in MKII. I actually love playing my Circle, but I'm the only (right now) veteran Cryx player locally so I don't face much (and there's no ghost fleet around here, who I think is the real culprit). Coven is the mohsar of Cryx, and my favourite caster. They've definitely taken a hit, although I've yet to yank them out in SR2017 which I suspect really helps. Dark host seems like a really bad fit for them to be honest. The coven do nothing to fix MAT in a faction that has notorious bad MAT. I've seen them tear it up in ghost fleet, and I can see great opportunities in most other themes, but they're wasted on Dark Host. -und_ed See, I think the problem is that you're looking at Coven through the lens of Mk2. Which is incorrect. The problem with what you're saying is:
1. The most common list I'm seeing with them runs two units of bane riders. They're cavalry, so they have no problem hitting what they need to on the charge, while the combination of vengeance, curse of shadows, veil of mists, and ghostly lets them get back strikes waaaaay more than you'd expect. Other Banes have lower mobility, but still get a surprisingly number of back strikes.
2. The way the egrogore works is...weird. To put it mildly. The Egrogore gets all of the focus, but it can't have that focus stripped, and when it takes damage, it can allocate that damage among the witches, each of whom can spend a focus to reduce the damage (letting them negate up to 15 damage/attack.) Combined with the fact that witches really have no need to play forward, a time-walk feat that triggers off the egregore's control range (one of the only casters which can run and feat, iirc,) the caster is very difficult to assassinate in most cases. It's the same problem as Haley2's old feat - it's a timewalk feat where the caster can be perfectly safe on feat turn.
3. 3 separate activations is waaay more significant now that it's practically the only way to cycle upkeeps anymore.
It really is a case of a hard control feat from Mk2 making it's way into Mk3 unaltered, combined with a caster that is extremely hard to assassinate. the Coven and Denny1 are both Mk2 control casters in a world where mk2 control casters no longer exist, and where a lot of the natural predators of such casters (I'm thinking particularly of snipe-feat-go MHSF here) no longer exists.
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unded
Junior Strategist
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Post by unded on Oct 18, 2017 21:31:47 GMT
double cav is probably the only way I'd play them in Dark Host. At least then you have a solid MAT. Other banes only get back strikes if they can walk in, which is very short range. The bigger issue is that Coven can easily bring faster elements than banes and give them ghostly, so the focus on banes really seems to be wasting their kit a bit.
You keep saying their feat is a time-walk feat, but if your opponents are used to the Coven it really isn't. Maybe this is because I played them a lot during MKII, but my meta knows how to play into their feat well. It's all about the walking threats and the 5" LOS for shooting to get work done during their feat (-2 MAT / RAT usually doesn't matter much since Cryx defensive stats are poor). Their feat should get them an alpha-strike, it's kinda the point. It doesn't let them alpha-strike and reset, which is what a genuine time-walk feat does (Ragnor, Haley2 etc). It's a good control feat, as it should be. It's nowhere near a time-walk, much to Cryx chagrin.
The separate activations are far less important now (MKIII) since their upkeep cycling is limited by Focus (previously perfect conjunction dropped cost by 1, and then you had significan upkeep cycling). At 2 FOC per IM, it's much less tempting now to cycle it. Where it is incredibly useful is for cycling abilities to deliver models through enemy models. That is pretty much their whole schtick, it's what makes the coven the coven. Like griffons are what makes Una2 Una2, or like being boring makes Baldur1 Baldur1.
Basically, Coven are nowhere near a MKII control caster. The feat has so many workarounds that are completely tech-independant. The only way they could feel like a MKII-control caster is if you're relying on getting the alpha-strike, in which case you dropped the wrong list from your pairing.
-und_ed
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Post by celeb on Oct 19, 2017 7:37:28 GMT
Bane Warriors with Tartarus also have MAT 7, which is solid for them.
Most threatranges under Coven Feat come down to 11" or 12" if you shoot, lower if you walk and melee. Bane Riders have a 12" threat, 15 if you trigger Vengeance. And then you are shooting at effective DEF 14 ARM 20 models. You might get one Bane Rider, just to have the Model or Unit that shot it charged off by the Riders (They will have MAT 8 impacts due to Tartarus).
And yes, their feat is a control/timewalk Feat. They might not Alpha and then feat you in Dark host, but they still rob you of a turn.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 19, 2017 7:48:56 GMT
Okay, who has actually played into that list (Coven, 2Cav, WE, min Warriors+CA, some more stuff) before? I have, so let me tell you a bit about it. Reducing the Coven's feat to an alpha generator is really not doing it enough justice. Turning Banes into Def14 and Stalkers into Def17 alone is amazing. Reducing basically any model to SPD+1 or SPD+2 (or SPD+5 for guns, but that is really more restrictive on the table than it sounds on paper) threat is amazing. But the real problem lies in the immense scenario pressure it builds in combination with:
- Bane Rider's Speed. They may be slow for Cav, but that's still comparatively fast. - The contesting power of incorporeal models. - The scoring power of the Coven itself, combined with their incredible resillience. - The contesting power of the Egregore.
Attrition into this list is actually doable, although it requires a lot of practice not to lose crazy amounts of time during the Coven's feat turn. Scenario is the problem, especially if they win the starting roll. That list really wants to go first, as it doesn't need to play the long game or care about terrain.
I encourage you to try it for yourselves. Grab a list that you think has some game into DennyFleet/CovenHost. Grab a good Cryx player. Hell, just for the fun of it play Spread the Net. You'll see what I mean.
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Post by celeb on Oct 19, 2017 8:00:07 GMT
The list I played against was Coven, Desecrator, 2 Nodes, 2 Max Riders, 2 min Warriors + CA, Tartarus, Engine.
Scenario was Standoff for the 3 times I played it and yes, everything zich sais is true, although the Coven didn't come forward much. Riders were a Scoring threat in the Circular zones while the Desecrator mostly hung back, shooting and scoring the rectangular zone.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 19, 2017 8:01:00 GMT
Okay, who has actually played into that list (Coven, 2Cav, WE, min Warriors+CA, some more stuff) before? I have, so let me tell you a bit about it. Reducing the Coven's feat to an alpha generator is really not doing it enough justice. Turning Banes into Def14 and Stalkers into Def17 alone is amazing. Reducing basically any model to SPD+1 or SPD+2 (or SPD+5 for guns, but that is really more restrictive on the table than it sounds on paper) threat is amazing. But the real problem lies in the immense scenario pressure it builds in combination with: - Bane Rider's Speed. They may be slow for Cav, but that's still comparatively fast. - The contesting power of incorporeal models. - The scoring power of the Coven itself, combined with their incredible resillience. - The contesting power of the Egregore. Attrition into this list is actually doable, although it requires a lot of practice not to lose crazy amounts of time during the Coven's feat turn. Scenario is the problem, especially if they win the starting roll. That list really wants to go first, as it doesn't need to play the long game or care about terrain. I encourage you to try it for yourselves. Grab a list that you think has some game into DennyFleet/CovenHost. Grab a good Cryx player. Hell, just for the fun of it play Spread the Net. You'll see what I mean. I agree with you on almost everything, but that list DEFINITELY wants to go second most of the time.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 19, 2017 8:02:32 GMT
You're tempting me to play it now, zich.
I only have 1 unit of riders, but I could proxy some soulies there. I definitely think Coven does better in Industries, Satyxis theme or even in Infernal Machines (double soulhunters looks fantastic).
Not seeing anything egregious - it's the same feat we've all known and loved for 6 years.
-und_ed
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Oct 19, 2017 8:08:32 GMT
oncomingstorm: Why is that? unded: Definitely try it (full list below). It's really disgusting. The other themes might be good as well with Coven. Why would you consider them superior though? conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0B0Z19191h1h1h2Ai2dWdWhZh_bBCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Dark Host (Coven 1) The Witch Coven of Garlghast [+26] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] - Skarlock Thrall [0(4)] Bane Lord Tartarus [0(6)] Bane Riders (max) [20] Bane Riders (max) [20] Bane Warriors (min) [10] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Wraith Engine [15]
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Oct 19, 2017 10:48:25 GMT
It's really impossible to fathom how Coven is considered a problem when they were nerfed from MKII, and were considered pretty middle-of-the-road back then. Changes to focus overboosting & the scenario packet. Coven went from being one of the easiest to assassinate casters in the game to the absolute hardest while also gaining the ability to abuse the new scenario packet harder than anyone else. Literally every iteration of Steam Roller in Mark2 had an asterisk in the scoring section that said *The Witch Coven of Garlghast can only control/dominate one zone per turn*. Now that that's gone you have 3 models that can score any type of scenario element as well as the single hardest to deal with solo in the game for flag scoring before you even add your first nonCaster model to your list.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 19, 2017 11:35:33 GMT
Fair enough, Deller.
I need to play them more I think. They've always been my favourite caster, need to see if they're more fun in MKIII than the twins. I suspect they may just be, an dthat's a tall order to top.
-und_ed
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 19, 2017 11:46:27 GMT
unded : Definitely try it (full list below). It's really disgusting. The other themes might be good as well with Coven. Why would you consider them superior though? Simply because a large part of their kit is allowing models to ignore free strikes, which is wasted on Dark Host. Both ghostwalk (duh) and Curse of shadows lets you ignore free strikes, and both curse of shadows and Veil of Mists lets you move through enemy models and obstructions. The only synergy the coven has with Dark Host is using Veil of Mists to trigger prowl. Dark Industries jumps out to me as fantastic, since you can actually deliver your warjacks completely secure that shooting is not going to matter, and that you can feat to guarantee an alpha. Their kit to deliver through enemies makes it exceedingly difficult to jam the jacks out, so just go nuts. Infernal Machines screams for soulhunters the same way Dark Host begs for Bane Riders, but I just prefer soulhunters to bane riders due to their versatility in killing both infantry and heavies. The ability to take cheap shield guards in addition to scenario-fodder Mcthralls doesn't hurt either. Everything I've said above for Infernal Machines can apply more-or-less to scourge of the broken coast, although while I usually like a Kraken in this theme I'd consider it essential to deal with whatever can survive satyxis + curse of shadows (there's quite a bit that fits that bill). This has the added benefit of actually getting real use out of the MAT / RAT debuff from the feat thanks to satyxis' solid defensive statline, not to mention gang means to-hit is not an issue, without havng to take expensive models to be accurate. I see all three having a better game than Dark Host. This is exciting - I have a lot of Coven gaming to do, wanna try out all of this! (after Venny and Skarre2 get some table time, that is. It's a great time to be Cryx) -und_ed
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Post by maximumhippo on Oct 24, 2017 7:43:43 GMT
unded : Definitely try it (full list below). It's really disgusting. The other themes might be good as well with Coven. Why would you consider them superior though? Simply because a large part of their kit is allowing models to ignore free strikes, which is wasted on Dark Host. Both ghostwalk (duh) and Curse of shadows lets you ignore free strikes, and both curse of shadows and Veil of Mists lets you move through enemy models and obstructions. The only synergy the coven has with Dark Host is using Veil of Mists to trigger prowl. -und_ed Counterpoint, because everything in Dark Host is already immune to free strikes, It allows you to use the other parts of the kit. Rather than waste effort on casting ghostwalk/veil of mists you can use CoS to turn damage up instead of for ignoring a jam unit or you can fish for crit blind on their nuke spell. I'm not saying you're wrong about the other themes, but I can say from experience, Coven Dark Host is back breaking to play against.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 24, 2017 8:15:14 GMT
I hear you, and it's Coven so very little is genuinely bad, but if I'm playing Dark Host I'd rather bring someone who does more for banes. I really like what Gaspy3 does for Banes, and I've been having a blast with Scaverous, both of whom do far more for the dark host than the Coven does, bringing both great defensive options and both having a MAT-fixer which banes really want unless you're doubling up on cavalry.
-und_ed
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