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Post by slaughtersun on Oct 17, 2017 12:52:27 GMT
Just add "in the begining of your next turn select only one instance of cripling grasp to upkeep"
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Post by Cryptix on Oct 17, 2017 12:57:45 GMT
As for the coven, I'm still not sure people are so convinced they're OP when there's another caster with pretty much the exact same feat and much more egregious spells, Rask.
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Post by JJDM on Oct 17, 2017 13:04:13 GMT
As for the coven, I'm still not sure people are so convinced they're OP when there's another caster with pretty much the exact same feat and much more egregious spells, Rask. Whenever I hear complaining about coven, it's not about their spell list or feat, it's about their ability to spread out across the table and score every scenario zone simultaneously |
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Post by jisidro on Oct 17, 2017 13:04:36 GMT
As for the coven, I'm still not sure people are so convinced they're OP when there's another caster with pretty much the exact same feat and much more egregious spells, Rask.
6 Focus instead of 9, no MAT/RAT penalty and cannot control various cenario pieces... Not so sure about egregious spells, nobody accused the coven of having a bad spell list.
If the CID is about the whole of Cryx Fleets and all 3 pirate themes (I'm pretty sure Johnny Depp invested in PP) allow all cryx casters then everything is on the table, they'll have what they want to test but I'm confident they won't shut the door on anything going in.
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Post by pangurban on Oct 17, 2017 15:57:41 GMT
As for the coven, I'm still not sure people are so convinced they're OP when there's another caster with pretty much the exact same feat and much more egregious spells, Rask. Whenever I hear complaining about coven, it's not about their spell list or feat, it's about their ability to spread out across the table and score every scenario zone simultaneously Which is an SR issue. |
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 17, 2017 18:25:02 GMT
Agreed. The decision to put the point threshold for victory at 5 was pretty boneheaded. PP should've stuck to their guns on that one and kept it at 6. At least then you can give up a partial turn of scoring and stay in the game.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 17, 2017 18:31:29 GMT
Agreed. The decision to put the point threshold for victory at 5 was pretty boneheaded. PP should've stuck to their guns on that one and kept it at 6. At least then you can give up a partial turn of scoring and stay in the game. The 6 point lead mechanic was a necessary change. In every game of SR I played I was able to literally sit back till turn 3 or 4 and just kill my opponents stuff with little retaliation (with a circle gunline mind you) then win the game because my opponent had no models left. SR17 punishes people who do sit at the back of the board and shoot and hide behind terrain. 5 Ctrl points is not the problem. Coven is the problem. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 17, 2017 20:37:58 GMT
Coven by itself is like Denny + Ghost Fleet. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
The problem with Coven is a time-walk feat combined with rarely being hindered by terrain, helping Cryx units and jacks with delivery, and the ability to pick the opponent apart like a pot roast. Any A-Tier tournament list is going to have some lopsided matchups, but it sounds like Coven has too many where it's just not a game at all.
I've always hated time-walk feats, but SR17 can handle them much better than any other scenario packet I've seen. Still, this one is just too much. The LOS clause could be removed entirely and you'd still have a very good caster. Or if everything in their CTRL gained Stealth instead. That actually has some workarounds and might make Agathia a more appealing alternative.
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Post by postindirty on Oct 18, 2017 2:58:40 GMT
Hey. We got internet down here. Don't be silly, if you had internet why did they have to light the beacons? Well I didn't say it was any good. |
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 18, 2017 3:30:56 GMT
Coven by itself is like Denny + Ghost Fleet. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The problem with Coven is a time-walk feat combined with rarely being hindered by terrain, helping Cryx units and jacks with delivery, and the ability to pick the opponent apart like a pot roast. Any A-Tier tournament list is going to have some lopsided matchups, but it sounds like Coven has too many where it's just not a game at all. I've always hated time-walk feats, but SR17 can handle them much better than any other scenario packet I've seen. Still, this one is just too much. The LOS clause could be removed entirely and you'd still have a very good caster. Or if everything in their CTRL gained Stealth instead. That actually has some workarounds and might make Agathia a more appealing alternative. Seems more like the problem with coven is that you can build for denny fleet OR you can build for coven banes. Denny gets a nutkick and the list chicken might not be as overwhelming. |
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 18, 2017 12:49:56 GMT
I think Ghost fleet has kind of acted as a red herring to hide coven honestly mcdermott. Granted I play circle, and Ghostly dudes crap all over my faction and the feat kind of makes it worse. But with the new terrain in SR2017 particularly if your meta uses obstructions as the centerpiece for LOS Coven gains a massive advantage just from having ghostly. I do think the combination is what gives cryx the massive win percentages but the issue is definitely more than just denny1. My issue with coven is less about their spell list as it is with the almost impossible odds to assassinate them at 9 focus and with the egrigore silliness and stealth and shoving tough good arm weaponmasters in your face. Overall it is just this cocktail of gross. I think skarre 1 is an issue too. Mostly because her feat is just a massive swing and the arm buff basically makes it a timewalk. Honestly I would be fairly content if all 3 of them received some minor feat reworks AND if coven got some survivability reduction somehow without making them useless. |
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unded
Junior Strategist
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Post by unded on Oct 18, 2017 14:29:48 GMT
Complaining about skarre1 really makes me question your observations here, Mac.
She's bringing a defensive buff that costs her (and realistically will only go on to about 3-5 models), while so many casters just apply something similar without any caveats. It's a +5 ARM swing on Cryx jacks, which is the equivalent of +2-3 in most other factions (See Harkevich, Stryker1, even Baldur2 and Xerxis). Of course Skarre gets a massive damage buff with it, but if you're treating it like a defensive time-walk that's not gonna be very effective.
It's beginning to sound more like Cryx-hate than a reasoned complaint. We're used to it, Cryx has seen this disease before (all throughout MKII), and it's a little bit flattering that it's finally returning, but maybe go see a doctor and get yourself checked out just in case.
-und_ed
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 18, 2017 14:47:50 GMT
Complaining about skarre1 really makes me question your observations here, Mac. She's bringing a defensive buff that costs her (and realistically will only go on to about 3-5 models), while so many casters just apply something similar without any caveats. It's a +5 ARM swing on Cryx jacks, which is the equivalent of +2-3 in most other factions (See Harkevich, Stryker1, even Baldur2 and Xerxis). Of course Skarre gets a massive damage buff with it, but if you're treating it like a defensive time-walk that's not gonna be very effective. It's beginning to sound more like Cryx-hate than a reasoned complaint. We're used to it, Cryx has seen this disease before (all throughout MKII), and it's a little bit flattering that it's finally returning, but maybe go see a doctor and get yourself checked out just in case. -und_ed the feat is my only complaint and honestly my only real issue is her in a very specific bane knight/wraith engine list. My issue is not with her overall kit. I just think being able to give almost army wide +5/+5 is silly good. Also every game I have seen it goes on 8-10 models and then skarre plays back safely. Put it on 10 bane knights and they are really really hard to remove and can alpha you hard. If the feat was honestly only used on 3-5 models i would not complain. Double wraith engine and double bane knights causes some abuse though. I try to be pretty reasonable and don't jump to conclusions. I never bought the skarre 1 complaints until I witnessed it myself. Maybe the issue is less with her than it is with dark host as a whole but it can be pretty oppressive. Not too many armies can deal with 10 arm 23 calvary who just blew up a good chunk of your army. Also, arm 25 from ranged/magic with the Wraith engine is just bonkers good and it takes butcher 1 feat levels of power to break through. You are also the guy that said and I qoute "Where you say "abuse", I say "make great use of" in reference of coven and Denny 1. IMO thats a skewed perspective and I heard that a lot in MK2... I was perfectly fine with cryx before dark host dropped. Even ghost fleet while oppressive was one of those things where it was one list only. But now with dark host and the abuses with coven are just kind blowing up the meta. Its not a disease its an opinion. I respect people who think cryx is fine even if I disagree with them Just because I think 3 very specific casters are an issue does not mean I hate the faction. I actually really enjoy playing against cryx lists for the most part. I called out Wurmy and Una 2 as overpowered and circle is my main faction. I knew High reclaimer had an abusable feat and I invested a lot into protectorate. I call bullcrap where I see it. Don't go accusing me of "cryx hate" I just dislike oppressive things that ruin the game for people. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 18, 2017 15:01:36 GMT
I honestly don't really understand why Skarre 1's feat is not limited to 5 models like Skarre 2's is. Perhaps that would help with the perception of her.
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unded
Junior Strategist
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Post by unded on Oct 18, 2017 17:40:34 GMT
Complaining about skarre1 really makes me question your observations here, Mac. She's bringing a defensive buff that costs her (and realistically will only go on to about 3-5 models), while so many casters just apply something similar without any caveats. It's a +5 ARM swing on Cryx jacks, which is the equivalent of +2-3 in most other factions (See Harkevich, Stryker1, even Baldur2 and Xerxis). Of course Skarre gets a massive damage buff with it, but if you're treating it like a defensive time-walk that's not gonna be very effective. It's beginning to sound more like Cryx-hate than a reasoned complaint. We're used to it, Cryx has seen this disease before (all throughout MKII), and it's a little bit flattering that it's finally returning, but maybe go see a doctor and get yourself checked out just in case. -und_ed the feat is my only complaint and honestly my only real issue is her in a very specific bane knight/wraith engine list. My issue is not with her overall kit. I just think being able to give almost army wide +5/+5 is silly good. Also every game I have seen it goes on 8-10 models and then skarre plays back safely. Put it on 10 bane knights and they are really really hard to remove and can alpha you hard. If the feat was honestly only used on 3-5 models i would not complain. Double wraith engine and double bane knights causes some abuse though. I try to be pretty reasonable and don't jump to conclusions. I never bought the skarre 1 complaints until I witnessed it myself. Maybe the issue is less with her than it is with dark host as a whole but it can be pretty oppressive. Not too many armies can deal with 10 arm 23 calvary who just blew up a good chunk of your army. Also, arm 25 from ranged/magic with the Wraith engine is just bonkers good and it takes butcher 1 feat levels of power to break through. You are also the guy that said and I qoute "Where you say "abuse", I say "make great use of" in reference of coven and Denny 1. IMO thats a skewed perspective and I heard that a lot in MK2... I was perfectly fine with cryx before dark host dropped. Even ghost fleet while oppressive was one of those things where it was one list only. But now with dark host and the abuses with coven are just kind blowing up the meta. Its not a disease its an opinion. I respect people who think cryx is fine even if I disagree with them Just because I think 3 very specific casters are an issue does not mean I hate the faction. I actually really enjoy playing against cryx lists for the most part. I called out Wurmy and Una 2 as overpowered and circle is my main faction. I knew High reclaimer had an abusable feat and I invested a lot into protectorate. I call bullcrap where I see it. Don't go accusing me of "cryx hate" I just dislike oppressive things that ruin the game for people. It's really impossible to fathom how Coven is considered a problem when they were nerfed from MKII, and were considered pretty middle-of-the-road back then. The disease comments were mostly just joking ways of saying I think you're badly off base. Honestly I think you're struggling more with the fact that Circle's not in a great place, and the Cryx themes really prey on the holes in Circle. I'm looking at it from a perspective of a Cryx faction that I walked away from in disgust early MKIII as just being Cygnar's whipping-boy, and I'm doing cartwheels in the streets (figuratively before anyone asks for photographic evidence) that we finally aren't their natural food source anymore. -und_ed |
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