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Post by Azahul on Sept 19, 2017 23:26:48 GMT
Hasn't Minions been asking for a S-type warlock (beyond arguably Rask) for a while now? I know Skorne certainly has. Maybe increasing the potency of a Minions warlock in beast support is an option. I don't say that definitively. I can imagine that an Abby2 type warlock could do much for the Minions warbeast stable's potency. Arkadius eclipses Abby2 by a mile. Minion Warlocks (at least Arkadius, Carver, and Rask) are fine. Arkadius would be near broken in literally any other faction (except maybe trolls? Even then, 20" threat on the Sea King is getting wild). We just lack good models for them to support. Better to get models that elevate our existing stable and gives us 3-4 great options than get one brand new model that utterly eclipses the existing stable.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2017 23:37:17 GMT
"Arkadius eclipses Abby2 by a mile. Minion Warlocks (at least Arkadius, Carver, and Rask) are fine. Arkadius would be near broken in literally any other faction (except maybe trolls? Even then, 20" threat on the Sea King is getting wild). We just lack good models for them to support. Better to get models that elevate our existing stable and gives us 3-4 great options than get one brand new model that utterly eclipses the existing stable."
Respectfully, I think the point that I'm trying to emphasize is that I'm not proposing anything specific, merely my belief that a specific solution can be found. When I mentioned Abby2, I did not mean her copied verbatim with a Minions tag, though I acknowledge it could be read that way. Additionally, I think it's worth stating more clearly that I LIKE playing Minions, and want good things for the faction too. I don't think DoA needs to be a zero-sum issue, and have confidence a good solution can be found.
If the 3-4 great options you desire are solos or units that have some utility outside of faction, but a smoking hot package for Friendly Faction only, that might work. It's worth pointing out that currently DoA does not treat Minion units and Solos as Friendly Faction, meaning if there are future releases that have a PGBH-like effect only on FF models, it can be good for Minions only.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 19, 2017 23:47:05 GMT
Respectfully, I think the point that I'm trying to emphasize is that I'm not proposing anything specific, merely my belief that a specific solution can be found. When I mentioned Abby2, I did not mean her copied verbatim with a Minions tag, though I acknowledge it could be read that way. Additionally, I think it's worth stating more clearly that I LIKE playing Minions, and want good things for the faction too. I don't think DoA needs to be a zero-sum issue, and have confidence a good solution can be found. What I meant by bringing up Abby2 was less to point out that we don't need a copy+paste Abby2, but that we have perfectly fine Warlocks as it is. The solution isn't "give Minions better Warlocks" when we already have some of the best in Hordes. The solution should be better Warbeasts/units/solos, and the former part of that solution just became somewhat fraught and compromised (although, again, I think the problem is mostly confined to the Gator side of the faction precisely because the battlegroup support is so amazing on some of the pig Warlocks). If the 3-4 great options you desire are solos or units that have some utility outside of faction, but a smoking hot package for Friendly Faction only, that might work. It's worth pointing out that currently DoA does not treat Minion units and Solos as Friendly Faction, meaning if there are future releases that have a PGBH-like effect only on FF models, it can be good for Minions only. Some of that is already in the pipeline (Kwaak & Gub for example). I agree that DoA is probably going to have a fairly minor impact on Minions' development going forward. What I don't agree with is that DoA will be a benefit. It will have negative effects just in terms of what kinds of models Minions get in future, and having to work around that is a downside with no benefit provided.
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Post by danfromchicago on Sept 20, 2017 0:13:45 GMT
With all due respect, models sell when they have good rules. Skorne players won't buy lousy models just because they're in a Skorne theme force.
So I don't think there'll be an appreciable drag. Though I suppose it's impossible to really know
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Post by Azahul on Sept 20, 2017 0:15:41 GMT
I expect Wrastlers, Battle Boars, and maybe Swamp Horrors to see some decent sales. Maybe Cyclops Shamans too, to help replicate the useful animii.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 20, 2017 0:38:21 GMT
"I expect Wrastlers, Battle Boars, and maybe Swamp Horrors to see some decent sales. Maybe Cyclops Shamans too, to help replicate the useful animii." All true for a Skorne purist. If I had no intention of buying into Minions more than DoA allows, I'd buy one or two of the Wrastler kit, two battle boars, and use my impending Swamp Siren and call it a day. As it is, since I'm expanding my Minions warbeast collection, I'm buying a Sacral Vault too, and Dahlia for WWFF. I want to run it with Rask, so now I want him and a Bogtrog Mist Speaker. Lynyssa Ryssyl and Alten Ashley, and these models are just a start. The purchases can snowball, they certainly will in my case.
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Post by Gaston on Sept 20, 2017 1:50:37 GMT
Bone Grinders gain Enrage. Problem solved.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 20, 2017 2:17:31 GMT
Bone Grinders gain Enrage. Problem solved. ...Why didn't I think of this sooner. This would have been a perfect benefit for WWFF instead of Overtake.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 20, 2017 2:49:29 GMT
I mean... I wouldn't say no, but do we actually need more armour cracking? Bone Grinders handing out Carapace would be better
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Post by gobber on Sept 20, 2017 5:25:53 GMT
Just give pigs no sleeping on the job in faction and I'll go away happy. Helga wants steady like none other.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2017 7:32:55 GMT
Guys, don't worry. DoA is restricted to Morghoul 1/2/3, Naaresh and Xekaar. Two of these are outright bad, one does nothing for the models in the theme, one is an okay one-trick-pony and one is actually good. There's nothing that will be OP in this theme that would not be OP already. If we could take this theme with X2 then sure, that would severely restrict Minion releases, but we can't. The only good thing we can add to your models that you cannot is Enrage. And that is often "too much of a good thing". Sure, we can get to some silly P+S, but if that is all a list does then it's simply a bad list.
Please also consider that this is an infantry theme, not a beast theme, thereby making beasts less desirable. If anything is OP here it's Brigands. I have so far come up with one list that I like in this theme and I can assure you that it's nothing you cannot do yourselves.
Leave the salt to us, it's what we're best at.
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Post by huckebein on Sept 20, 2017 8:09:48 GMT
Guys, don't worry. DoA is restricted to Morghoul 1/2/3, Naaresh and Xekaar. Two of these are outright bad, one does nothing for the models in the theme, one is an okay one-trick-pony and one is actually good. There's nothing that will be OP in this theme that would not be OP already. If we could take this theme with X2 then sure, that would severely restrict Minion releases, but we can't. The only good thing we can add to your models that you cannot is Enrage. And that is often "too much of a good thing". Sure, we can get to some silly P+S, but if that is all a list does then it's simply a bad list. Please also consider that this is an infantry theme, not a beast theme, thereby making beasts less desirable. If anything is OP here it's Brigands. I have so far come up with one list that I like in this theme and I can assure you that it's nothing you cannot do yourselves. Leave the salt to us, it's what we're best at. The only thing you can add that minions cannot is enrage and non-feat incorporeal and abuse and field marshal: pain response and Prodding and condition and force aura and Rush Ultimately, it's even WORSE if the theme is still bad because it still means that minion beasts have to be built around a non-faction theme that isn't even being used.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 20, 2017 8:12:33 GMT
Well, it certainly won't lead to the Dracodile (and all future beasts) being better. Could lead to them being worse. Not a good turn of events for Minions players. Why is the assumption that they'll crush an entire faction rather than adjusting a theme list? Seems like the theme getting adjusted is way way more likely than altering a design template for an entire faction based on one theme.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2017 8:26:57 GMT
Guys, don't worry. DoA is restricted to Morghoul 1/2/3, Naaresh and Xekaar. Two of these are outright bad, one does nothing for the models in the theme, one is an okay one-trick-pony and one is actually good. There's nothing that will be OP in this theme that would not be OP already. If we could take this theme with X2 then sure, that would severely restrict Minion releases, but we can't. The only good thing we can add to your models that you cannot is Enrage. And that is often "too much of a good thing". Sure, we can get to some silly P+S, but if that is all a list does then it's simply a bad list. Please also consider that this is an infantry theme, not a beast theme, thereby making beasts less desirable. If anything is OP here it's Brigands. I have so far come up with one list that I like in this theme and I can assure you that it's nothing you cannot do yourselves. Leave the salt to us, it's what we're best at. The only thing you can add that minions cannot is enrage and non-feat incorporeal and abuse and field marshal: pain response and Prodding and condition and force aura and Rush Ultimately, it's even WORSE if the theme is still bad because it still means that minion beasts have to be built around a non-faction theme that isn't even being used. Oh yes, Force Aura is relevant. All of the others you can replicate with in-faction effects, some to smaller, some to greater effect. Is that really the end of the Minion world?
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Post by Gaston on Sept 20, 2017 11:02:47 GMT
I am sure Skorne would be salty if they were enslaved by the 5 worst casters in Cygnar?
Meaningful question: why do you feel this is an infantry theme?
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