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Post by Deadneck on Sept 19, 2017 18:00:49 GMT
Savages, Archidons. I like turning a Cyclops Brute into a super-Juggernaut: Naaresh feat + Enrage and Primal means it's 13/21 before Agonizer (though only 19 boxes), with 4 MAT 7 pow 19s and 1 MAT 7 pow 17 at 11" and 9.5" respectively. The Morghoul Abuse version is perhaps better. Will Work for Food looks like it could be your Irregulars though, no? Maybe not without the unit options, but conversely in Disciples of Agony we have no access to Minion solos, particularly the excellent lessers. We also don't get free points for taking any of the minion beasts (or any beasts for that matter), so while DoA looks like options for days, you really are forced to pay for that versatility. It's a great theme and I'm looking forward to playing it (already got my Battle Boar). Hopefully Minions get a proper minion unit theme so Skorne isn't stealing that thunder. You can take one Minion solo in theme, with no restrictions being specified. Also, if any theme is the Minion Irregulars theme, it's this one. Will work for food excludes most units, battle engines, and is still restricted to faction appropriate beasts. Disciples of Agony allows all beasts and all units, something no Minion theme does. The only way WWFF is like Irregulars is allowing any warlock.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Sept 19, 2017 21:18:10 GMT
I will agree that it seems more like a minions theme than a scorn theme and its kinda frustrating to have another faction get more variety from other models than your own. Though I will say that I don't think the dracodile being allowed in this theme automatically makes it garbage. I still think that there is lots of potential for it within minions especially if it has some form of bonus for amphibious models near it as that doesn't affect skorne in any way that it doesn't also give a bonus to minions.
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Post by drillbossd on Sept 19, 2017 21:41:37 GMT
You can take one Minion solo in theme, with no restrictions being specified. Also, if any theme is the Minion Irregulars theme, it's this one. Will work for food excludes most units, battle engines, and is still restricted to faction appropriate beasts. Disciples of Agony allows all beasts and all units, something no Minion theme does. The only way WWFF is like Irregulars is allowing any warlock. Ah, my mistake on the Solo. I glossed over it in the Insider and thought it had only been a byproduct of the theme change CID. I mainly feel weird that they "spoiled" two Skorne themes we had already heard about instead of showing off themes for other factions.
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Post by danfromchicago on Sept 19, 2017 21:42:07 GMT
I will agree that it seems more like a minions theme than a scorn theme and its kinda frustrating to have another faction get more variety from other models than your own. Though I will say that I don't think the dracodile being allowed in this theme automatically makes it garbage. I still think that there is lots of potential for it within minions especially if it has some form of bonus for amphibious models near it as that doesn't affect skorne in any way that it doesn't also give a bonus to minion As spoiled the animus will grant concealment to amphibious models in a pretty big radius. Not something that will be particularly good for Skorne
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2017 21:57:51 GMT
While previously mentioned, I think the sales motive is being underestimated.
Like many Skorne players, I have slowly been collecting many Minions, and run them as a second faction when I want mix-up. I truly enjoy them, and while not every Skorne player does so, there are enough that many think or dabble with the idea of the full buy-in.
This theme vastly increases my considerations to do so, for both Skorne and Minions. I don't currently own a Xekaar or Chiron, but I'm thinking about it now. I don't own Naaresh either, or three Archidons, but I certainly will do so after a test run. One Battle Boar for Primal on Archidons makes their native threat range and Flight incredible. With Enrage+Primal+Feat, I've got a MAT 8, 14/19 POW 21 Missile for 10pts. Hell yeah, that was fun and effective,and it's just the beginning.
Buying the models for DoA will definitely put me over the brink into full Minions, and I'll buy all the models I need for WWFF, which also looks super fun. The cascading effect will drives sales through the roof.
Finally: It will make more Minion players through the backdoor. You'll see more show up in your meta, and the national, when players think that Minions is a better option in the current climate than Skorne.
I get the grousing. It feels nice having something exclusive and awesome. I'd just like to point out that it's good for the goose (PP) and the gander (Minions).
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Post by huckebein on Sept 19, 2017 22:04:13 GMT
Ill be optimistic for this being good for minions when we get no sleeping on the job, a theme-enabled option for +2 strength on our warrior models without any resource expenditure on our casters, rush, enrage, the ability to mix beasts, free charges without needing to hit for it, anf the krea
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2017 22:21:33 GMT
"Ill be optimistic for this being good for minions when we get no sleeping on the job, a theme-enabled option for +2 strength on our warrior models without any resource expenditure on our casters, rush, enrage, the ability to mix beasts, free charges without needing to hit for it, and the krea." Lot of salt in that, though every faction feels that way about other people's toys. I would be stupid giddy to have some Circle tricks in Skorne. When I say good for Minions, I don't mean gameplay, but representation. People owning Minions means people playing Minions, and unless the appeal is just to be special snowflake, that's a good thing.
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Post by huckebein on Sept 19, 2017 22:35:40 GMT
The appeal is playing minions. If I could field DoA in a minion tourney pairing that'd be great, but I cant do that. Instead this means not getting interesting beasts in the future for minions because pig beasts will now have to be balances around gator animi and skorne animi even though I only have access to half of those by sticking even more points on a non-battlegroup Warlock via wrongeye (or rorsch for gators).
This theme introduces a permanent question going forward of 'is this beast balanced with rush' even though I can't use it.
Unless you want to explain how all future minion releases being balanced around skorne's beast support is somehow good for minions, you should probably not be saying that it is.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 19, 2017 22:48:58 GMT
More people playing Minions isn't necessarily a good thing for existing Minion players though, beyond the nebulous benefit of a larger community. I get what huckebein is saying. All the gameplay benefits from this theme go to Skorne. Those of us who already play Minions don't magically have better models because more people are using Minion models elsewhere, and the fear is that the opposite will happen (i.e. that in future CIDs we have to watch Warbeasts and units be toned down due to potential problems when fielded with Skorne).
Now, I don't think the latter element is a particularly big fear. Skorne doesn't have a single Warlock half as good at running Warbeasts as Arkadius or Carver, so anything broken in Skorne would be busted with pigs. I guess there's a chance it may impact Gators negatively though, they don't really have a stunning Warlock for Warbeasts beyond Rask being good with anything, and so they may see some balancing around the fact that their Warbeasts can be mixed and matched with pigs and the likes of Naaresh. But, that said, there is zero chance as far as I can see that we are going to see Warbeasts be made better because of this theme. We're in a situation where our best case scenario is that things stay roughly the same.
And as a faction which has had almost no releases since Mark III dropped, roughly the same is a bitter pill to swallow.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2017 22:58:03 GMT
"Unless you want to explain how all future minion releases being balanced around skorne's beast support is somehow good for minions, you should probably not be saying that it is."
That's a fair argument in how this can impact gameplay for the faction, though I maintain that expanding the community has value too. I recall hearing the Dracodile is limited to Minions only, but I cannot confirm that. If someone knows with certainty and has a citation, it'd be great to see. There may be a solution to your query regarding Skorne beast support impacting Minions development. If Minions are granted one or more Warlocks that have unique to faction comparable beast support, that would ameliorate the discrepancy to a degree. Only Paingivers and Naaresh are scheduled to be played in DoA, meaning 5 warlocks at the moment. If Two Minion warlocks provided exceptional (better than BGBH) support for warbeasts without using Fury or feating, that could go a long way. Perhaps a Warlock unit with a 3" bubble for each escort that provides +2STR and free charges. They could have superior defensive tech than PGBH, making them less die to everything. Clever people can come up with ideas, and I trust that PP and the CID process can reveal them. It's not an insurmountable problem, and PP has a vested interest in selling more models. The playing community does too.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 19, 2017 23:05:17 GMT
Your solution to the problem that Skorne can run our Warbeasts better than we (well, Gators at least) can is that we might one day in the future get a Warlock who can equal Skorne?
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Post by huckebein on Sept 19, 2017 23:11:28 GMT
Your solution to the problem that Skorne can run our Warbeasts better than we (well, Gators at least) can is that we might one day in the future get a Warlock who can equal Skorne? This. Relevant to this thread topic specifically, which gator warlock are people excited to field a gargantuan with, knowing that said gargantuan is not considered a problem with access to rush, pgbh, and naaresh/morghoul?
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2017 23:12:10 GMT
"Your solution to the problem that Skorne can run our Warbeasts better than we (well, Gators at least) can is that we might one day in the future get a Warlock who can equal Skorne?"
I am not solving anything, simply presenting an option. I trust a comprehensive team of developers and community review can come up with a solution. The challenge of balancing Minion warbeasts with how they can impact Skorne is real, but not insurmountable. Hasn't Minions been asking for a S-type warlock (beyond arguably Rask) for a while now? I know Skorne certainly has. Maybe increasing the potency of a Minions warlock in beast support is an option. I don't say that definitively. I can imagine that an Abby2 type warlock could do much for the Minions warbeast stable's potency.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 19, 2017 23:19:07 GMT
Relevant to this thread topic specifically, which gator warlock are people excited to field a gargantuan with, knowing that said gargantuan is not considered a problem with access to rush, pgbh, and naaresh/morghoul? I mean... it makes me excited to see a pig Gargantuan, since it probably means it'll be fine with Arkadius without any changes to his Feat. Sucks to be a Gator though.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 19, 2017 23:20:23 GMT
"Relevant to this thread topic specifically, which gator warlock are people excited to field a gargantuan with...." Cool. On topic, I think the obvious strongest option is Rask, though a boring conclusion. I've found that Gargantuans can often be alpha struck by melee models that out threat it. Advancing into an unassailable position that threatens the opposition line has real value. Perhaps Calaban? Parasite makes guns better, Blind stacks great, and a the water benefit shelters Croaks well.
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