Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 5:53:01 GMT
Last time I checked Bane Warriors & Wraith Engines weren't included in Black Industries so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Iron Lich Overseer =P Why do I have to be the one finding what Cryx can do in its own theme lists? Which are complete trash for 5 points. There's a grand total of 2 at the WTC being played in Coven Infernal Machines lists. In those lists they cost 0 points. Cryx warjack casters need their jacks in the battlegroup, nearly all of Cryx's jack buffs are battlegroup only. If you're playing Dark Industries & not playing a Jack caster you've already lost. By that logic you need to factor in that Butcher1 can take Malakov1 who can Redline Juggernauts up to Speed 6 pow 21 that get weapon master under feat. I don't bring shit like that up because just because you can doesn't mean you should. It's not actually worth playing, just like ILOs that aren't free. You were better off suggesting Ragman, who oh hey, look at that, he works for Khador too. Can't wait until all the old themes get merc models added to them.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 6:30:37 GMT
Because Nemo3 isn't killing the jacks with ranged attacks, he's killing them with boosted pow 12 Electro leaps that hit the Slayer/Seether Chasis at dice -5 & the crab Chasis at dice -6 that can also possibly cause disruption preventing any meaningful retaliation even if jacks survives. The initial ranged attacks don't need to do any damage for the Cryx army to be utterly devastated. How should E-Leaps causing Disruption? o.O Aren't you mixing thing quite a bit up? The leaps aren't, but many of the initial shots have either disruption or Crit Disruption. Lets take Canada Moose's Nemo3 list for WTC: conflictchamber.com/#c1501b_-0ngW9b9b9b9C9cc0akanaj9c___-0nbS9c9c9c9ydXakanaj9ce59cbzbzCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Heavy Metal (Nemo 3) Artificer General Nemo [+25] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Firefly [8] - Lancer [10] - Reliant [14] - Squire [0(5)] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)] - Firefly [8] Lieutenant Allison Jakes [0(4)] - Firefly [8] Storm Strider [18] Storm Strider [18] There's 4 shots with Crit Disruption coming from Striders & Arlan's spray in emergency situations. While it's never a good idea to use Nemo's melee weapon to disrupt, in the late game it might be worth throwing away Finch to get a crucial disruption. All in all that list puts out a massive amount of firepower that even with Carapace it's highly unlikely Cryx jacks will survive it. Over all assuming one of Nemo's Fireflys is going to run to set up ionization & can't shoot, & Nemo & Jrs allocate 1 to each jack the list gets 4 fully boosted pow 12 gun shots from fireflys which will hit slayers at dice -9, a fully boosted pow 15 from Reliant at dice -6, 4 potentially boosted, depending on power token generation, Pow 17s at dice -4. On top of all this you get 8 d3 Lightning Generator leaps that hit at dice -5. This is assuming Nemo & Finch don't want to move forward & expose themselves so they don't contribute anything. Even without feating, the above assuming no damage boosts from striders does an average of 52 damage to Slayers/Seethers with Carapace. So without Nemo3's feat it almost does enough to 100% 2 Slayers/Seethers. With his feat it does an average of 135 damage to Slayers. That's more than enough to kill 4 Slayers/Seethers from full to dead on average even with Crapace. This is all assuming that Nemo, Finch, Arlan, Jr, Jakes, Lancer & one Firefly are contributing absolutely nothing offensively.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 18, 2017 6:59:43 GMT
All in all that list puts out a massive amount of firepower that even with Carapace it's highly unlikely Cryx jacks will survive it. Over all assuming one of Nemo's Fireflys is going to run to set up ionization & can't shoot, & Nemo & Jrs allocate 1 to each jack the list gets 4 fully boosted pow 12 gun shots from fireflys which will hit slayers at dice -9, a fully boosted pow 15 from Reliant at dice -6, 4 potentially boosted, depending on power token generation, Pow 17s at dice -4. On top of all this you get 8 d3 Lightning Generator leaps that hit at dice -5. This is assuming Nemo & Finch don't want to move forward & expose themselves so they don't contribute anything. Even without feating, the above assuming no damage boosts from striders does an average of 52 damage to Slayers/Seethers with Carapace. So without Nemo3's feat it almost does enough to 100% 2 Slayers/Seethers. With his feat it does an average of 135 damage to Slayers. That's more than enough to kill 4 Slayers/Seethers from full to dead on average even with Crapace. This is all assuming that Nemo, Finch, Arlan, Jr, Jakes, Lancer & one Firefly are contributing absolutely nothing offensively. That math, tho... 4 fireflies at Dice - 9: 6 damage Reliant at Dice -6: 4.5 damage 4 Storm Striders shots at Dice -4: 12 damage that's 22.5 points of reliable, targeted damage coming out of a dedicated shooting list - even assuming no misses, which will happen at 6 to hit even on 3 dice, especially since the storm striders are probably not boosting. Not at all impressive. Yes, if you factor in 16 electro leaps each doing 2 damage each, against a braindead opponent who cannot/does not ground their e-leaps, the number jumps impressively. But saying that it's '52 damage' is highly misleading. Not to mention, the Nemo3 electric gunline is one of the highest damage-output gunlines in the entire game, and makes heavy use of a mechanic (which only cygnar has) that ignores carapace. Not the greatest argument for the theme being 'fine' or unimpressive. Crunch the numbers on a Sloan gunline, and it ends up being a lot less impressive.
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unded
Junior Strategist
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Post by unded on Sept 18, 2017 8:43:32 GMT
Crunch the numbers on a Sloan gunline, and it ends up being a lot less impressive. I cannot think of any stronger recommendation for this theme being good for the game. -und_ed
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Post by jisidro on Sept 18, 2017 8:48:57 GMT
Stormstriders have boosts and will likely have a firefly and a feat when the gunline opens up... that math isn't describing what happens at the table.
*Holds hand* I cannot ground e-leaps on my whole army. Can you tell me how?
More OT: Even if Black Industries kills gunlines dead and even survive against assassination enablers present on a lot of them... The DEF 13 ARM 17 jacks aren't impressive against melee opponents... How will they fare against such opponents?
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benkei
Junior Strategist
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 9:33:16 GMT
So we have 80% of Khador casters who can make Khador jacks charge as far as an unbuffed Cryx jack (mind, charge, not run) and like 6 Cryx casters that can make Cryx jacks charge much farther than any Khador jack, but there are people in this thread saying Cryx is not faster than Khador... amazing. And when you point this out the answer is "but, but, but... Juggernaut hits harder!"
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Post by zorrobard47 on Sept 18, 2017 11:04:04 GMT
Ok. My two cents on the theme:
I would change it to:
Non character speed 6 heavy Warjacks gain carapace.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 11:41:59 GMT
All in all that list puts out a massive amount of firepower that even with Carapace it's highly unlikely Cryx jacks will survive it. Over all assuming one of Nemo's Fireflys is going to run to set up ionization & can't shoot, & Nemo & Jrs allocate 1 to each jack the list gets 4 fully boosted pow 12 gun shots from fireflys which will hit slayers at dice -9, a fully boosted pow 15 from Reliant at dice -6, 4 potentially boosted, depending on power token generation, Pow 17s at dice -4. On top of all this you get 8 d3 Lightning Generator leaps that hit at dice -5. This is assuming Nemo & Finch don't want to move forward & expose themselves so they don't contribute anything. Even without feating, the above assuming no damage boosts from striders does an average of 52 damage to Slayers/Seethers with Carapace. So without Nemo3's feat it almost does enough to 100% 2 Slayers/Seethers. With his feat it does an average of 135 damage to Slayers. That's more than enough to kill 4 Slayers/Seethers from full to dead on average even with Crapace. This is all assuming that Nemo, Finch, Arlan, Jr, Jakes, Lancer & one Firefly are contributing absolutely nothing offensively. That math, tho... 4 fireflies at Dice - 9: 6 damage Reliant at Dice -6: 4.5 damage 4 Storm Striders shots at Dice -4: 12 damage that's 22.5 points of reliable, targeted damage coming out of a dedicated shooting list - even assuming no misses, which will happen at 6 to hit even on 3 dice, especially since the storm striders are probably not boosting. Not at all impressive. Yes, if you factor in 16 electro leaps each doing 2 damage each, against a braindead opponent who cannot/does not ground their e-leaps, the number jumps impressively. But saying that it's '52 damage' is highly misleading. Not to mention, the Nemo3 electric gunline is one of the highest damage-output gunlines in the entire game, and makes heavy use of a mechanic (which only cygnar has) that ignores carapace. Not the greatest argument for the theme being 'fine' or unimpressive. Crunch the numbers on a Sloan gunline, and it ends up being a lot less impressive. What exactly is Black Industries grounding Leaps with, the free light jacks?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 12:14:20 GMT
So we have 80% of Khador casters who can make Khador jacks charge as far as an unbuffed Cryx jack (mind, charge, not run) and like 6 Cryx casters that can make Cryx jacks charge much farther than any Khador jack, but there are people in this thread saying Cryx is not faster than Khador... amazing. And when you point this out the answer is "but, but, but... Juggernaut hits harder!" Actually we have a couple Cryx casters who can compete with the best of Khadors. 80% of Khador casters get to Cryx's base line, but plenty of them go further. No caster in Cryx can bullet a jack further than Strakov1. The absolute best we can do is Aiakos2 bulleting Kharybdis for a 17" threat using Feat & Assail. Strakov1 can bullet any Khador heavy 19" + melee range. Cryx can't top that. Vlad1 gets to turn all his jacks speed 8 for a turn on top of Boundless Charge. Vlad3 hands out Infernal Machine & Side Step. Old Witch1 give apparition & has gallows pulls. So overall it's 80% of Khador casters get their jacks up to Cryx's baseline. 20% can Make Khador jacks better then Cryx's baseline & out threat every Cryx caster except Mortenebra1 & Aiakos2, and even they're still out threatened by Strakov1, all while Khador still hits harder. Vlad1 is the most popular Khador caster at the moment. He can threaten a fully loaded Juggernaut 14". Asphyxious3, Coven, and Goreshade3 cap at 12", Venethrax only gets his speed buff vs Living and he caps at 12", and Mortnebra2 only gets 13" on her own & requires Deathjack in range & able to cast spells if she wants to push it to 16". Here the big kick though, if Mortenebra1 or Aiakos want to compete with Vlad's threat range they have to blow their whole stack & in Aiakos's case his feat & that's all their doing. Mortenebra2 not only uses her whole stack, but she also uses Deathjack's activation & focus to pull it off. Vlad1 can send a Boundless Charged 2 Focused Juggernaut that charges for free 14" while also casting S&P to buff the giant mountain of Winter Guard he brought & thanks to Sac Pawn doesn't have to worry about the fact he's on 0 camp vs Cryx. So yes, Khador jacks are both faster & harder hitting then Cryx jacks.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 18, 2017 12:16:22 GMT
So we have 80% of Khador casters who can make Khador jacks charge as far as an unbuffed Cryx jack (mind, charge, not run) and like 6 Cryx casters that can make Cryx jacks charge much farther than any Khador jack, but there are people in this thread saying Cryx is not faster than Khador... amazing. And when you point this out the answer is "but, but, but... Juggernaut hits harder!" Actually we have a couple Cryx casters who can compete with the best of Khadors. 80% of Khador casters get to Cryx's base line, but plenty of them go further. No caster in Cryx can bullet a jack further than Strakov1. The absolute best we can do is Aiakos2 bulleting Kharybdis for a 17" threat using Feat & Assail. Strakov1 can bullet any Khador heavy 19" + melee range. Cryx can't top that. Vlad1 gets to turn all his jacks speed 8 for a turn on top of Boundless Charge. Vlad3 hands out Infernal Machine & Side Step. Old Witch1 give apparition & has gallows pulls. So overall it's 80% of Khador casters get their jacks up to Cryx's baseline. 20% can Make Khador jacks better then Cryx's baseline & out threat every Cryx caster except Mortenebra1 & Aiakos2, and even they're still out threatened by Strakov1, all while Khador still hits harder. Vlad1 is the most popular Khador caster at the moment. He can threaten a fully loaded Juggernaut 14". Asphyxious3, Coven, and Goreshade3 cap at 12", Venethrax only gets his speed buff vs Living and he caps at 12", and Mortnebra2 only gets 13" on her own & requires Deathjack in range & able to cast spells if she wants to push it to 16". Here the big kick though, if Mortenebra1 or Aiakos want to compete with Vlad's threat range they have to blow their whole stack & in Aiakos's case his feat & that's all their doing. Mortenebra2 not only uses her whole stack, but she also uses Deathjack's activation & focus to pull it off. Vlad1 can send a Boundless Charged 2 Focused Juggernaut that charges for free 14" while also casting S&P to buff the giant mountain of Winter Guard he brought & thanks to Sac Pawn doesn't have to worry about the fact he's on 0 camp vs Cryx. So yes, Khador jacks are both faster & harder hitting then Cryx jacks. But with weaker armour, now.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 12:19:33 GMT
Actually we have a couple Cryx casters who can compete with the best of Khadors. 80% of Khador casters get to Cryx's base line, but plenty of them go further. No caster in Cryx can bullet a jack further than Strakov1. The absolute best we can do is Aiakos2 bulleting Kharybdis for a 17" threat using Feat & Assail. Strakov1 can bullet any Khador heavy 19" + melee range. Cryx can't top that. Vlad1 gets to turn all his jacks speed 8 for a turn on top of Boundless Charge. Vlad3 hands out Infernal Machine & Side Step. Old Witch1 give apparition & has gallows pulls. So overall it's 80% of Khador casters get their jacks up to Cryx's baseline. 20% can Make Khador jacks better then Cryx's baseline & out threat every Cryx caster except Mortenebra1 & Aiakos2, and even they're still out threatened by Strakov1, all while Khador still hits harder. Vlad1 is the most popular Khador caster at the moment. He can threaten a fully loaded Juggernaut 14". Asphyxious3, Coven, and Goreshade3 cap at 12", Venethrax only gets his speed buff vs Living and he caps at 12", and Mortnebra2 only gets 13" on her own & requires Deathjack in range & able to cast spells if she wants to push it to 16". Here the big kick though, if Mortenebra1 or Aiakos want to compete with Vlad's threat range they have to blow their whole stack & in Aiakos's case his feat & that's all their doing. Mortenebra2 not only uses her whole stack, but she also uses Deathjack's activation & focus to pull it off. Vlad1 can send a Boundless Charged 2 Focused Juggernaut that charges for free 14" while also casting S&P to buff the giant mountain of Winter Guard he brought & thanks to Sac Pawn doesn't have to worry about the fact he's on 0 camp vs Cryx. So yes, Khador jacks are both faster & harder hitting then Cryx jacks. But with weaker armour, now. only against guns, they're still only getting hit at dice -3 by an unbuffed Seether vs the dice +2 they hit back at, but yes
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Kavrae
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Post by Kavrae on Sept 18, 2017 13:06:57 GMT
Newbie perspective on the theme list and this entire thread.... Time for an itemized wall of text (because that's what I do ) ! 1) Cryx vs Khador comparison is completely absurd and is getting old already. I'm tired of hearing about it after only playing for a year. I don't see how the veterans can listen to that crap again without losing their minds. Access to different buffs, different debuffs, different base statlines, and different support models. How people think direct stat-to-stat comparisons does ANYTHING is completely ridiculous. 2) Theme list skews... Theme lists should be... well... thematic. They should not take 50% of a faction, give it generic buffs, and call it a theme. They should focus on a specific subsection of the faction and give them buffs specific to that subsection. Which, for the most part, I think they're doing alright with. Naturally this is going to result in SOME spam and stat skews. This is particularly prevalent in themes with a lack of support models or a few badly balanced ones. Example: Ghost Fleet finally getting SOME options outside of the cookie cutter build with Agrimony coming out. With that being said, some of the spam lists are just getting stupid and I'm not sure of any good fixes to that. Binary lists (like 100% incorporeal or mass armor spam) are just plain toxic and need some work. 3) Ok, this one is a major pet peeve that's been done multiple times in this thread. If a single list you make can theoretically have an advantage over every single theme a specific faction takes, then either your list is broken (and needs dev work) or their themes aren't diverse enough. There should be strengths and weaknesses to every faction and every theme. No one theme should dominate a single faction by itself. To extend this, not every single theme in a faction should completely dominate another specific faction. To play off this: 4) Starting Mk3 Cryx was DESTROYED by gunlines. Just absolutely obliterated. So we got a few themes that help with this. That's fine. If 1/3 of Cryx's themes can survive gunlines and 2/3 can't, then I would consider that well balanced. We have some counterplay against them, but it's still a general faction weakness outside of specialization. The trouble I"m seeing is that every theme we've gotten, plus several buffs, counter gunlines. Ghost Fleet counters by way of numbers and incorporeal. Dark Host has recursion, clouds, and increased toughness (particularly against guns). Infernal Machines has shield guard spam and jamming. Black Industries gets armor vs guns. It's.... basically reversing the problem instead of fixing it. I don't like this. 5) Free points. I'm not a fan of this. Free points are being handed out like candy and it basically means theme forces play 10-20 points above non-themes. I understand that this is done to railroad lists in a particular direction, but this is honestly a bad method of doing so. The point of theme forces is SUPPOSED to be specialization with buffs vs generalist with options. I love the theme specific buffs like the Ghost Fleet's recursion and Dark Host's clouds. But please... stop putting free points on everything. If we absolutely MUST have it? Use it on the spam lists and make it one of the buffs. If they need to push themes towards specific builds, then they seriously need to rethink how themes work. 6) Ok, finally getting to Black Industries itself.... I already said that I'm annoyed that all of our themes are anti-gun, so we'll skip that. I've honestly been waiting for a pure warjack theme. Infernal Machines is nice, but I have a hard time deciding what to focus on with that one and rarely come up with a decent list for it. As a few people already mentioned, we just plain didn't see heavy warjacks before this. Krakens? Sure, if someone's running Skarre or Goreshade3. Light jacks? Everywhere. Heavies? Nothing but the occasional Seether or Nightmare. Which makes me sad, because I really like my Malice and Reaper. I don't really like HOW they did our heavy warjack theme, but I'm also not sure what I'd rather have that isn't more focused version of Infernal Machines. On a good point? I think it already adds some nice diversity to our current infantry-heavy themes. I like infantry heavy armies, but I like diversity more. To round this rant off: I'm going to see if I can do something with Aiakos2 (or Denny3) with some Reapers, Malice, and maybe finally get some use out of the Deathjack that I got in Mk2. I'm not sure if I'll replace my half-done Dark Host list with Black Industries, but I'm going to give it a fair shot.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 18, 2017 13:37:40 GMT
You can say that at the start of Mk 3 Cryx was destroyed by gunlines, but holy hell has Cryx started to repeat the cycles of abuse by bringing one of the most over the top gunlines in the game with Denny Ghost Fleet.
I think Carapace is a massive thing to give to Cryx Jacks. I don't think its necessarily OP, but I think that the power of Ghost fleet and the list of things that you need to bring to just not die or lose trivially to Ghost fleet is so high that Having an anti shooting pairing like this be possible is too much. Denny needs to be nerfed for this them to not be one of the most ridiculous pairings in the game.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 18, 2017 13:43:05 GMT
You can say that at the start of Mk 3 Cryx was destroyed by gunlines, but holy hell has Cryx started to repeat the cycles of abuse by bringing one of the most over the top gunlines in the game with Denny. Fixed that for you.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 18, 2017 13:45:44 GMT
You can say that at the start of Mk 3 Cryx was destroyed by gunlines, but holy hell has Cryx started to repeat the cycles of abuse by bringing one of the most over the top gunlines in the game with Denny. Fixed that for you. Ignoring the recurring, long range, LOS ignoring and cover ignoring portions of this equation misses the point. Denny makes any gunline good, but this particular gunline is stronger than others not due to Denny but due to the resilience of recurring Ghost pirates.
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