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Post by Cryptix on Sept 18, 2017 13:46:59 GMT
Ignoring the recurring, long range, LOS ignoring and cover ignoring portions of this equation misses the point. Denny makes any gunline good, but this particular gunline is stronger than others not due to Denny but due to the resilience of recurring Ghost pirates. The argument really loses steam when you realize how afraid you are of RAT 4 POW 10 guns. Whopee, you're missing a khador jack half the time. If Denny1 didn't exist (if only...) then more people would run the stronger IMO melee build where you get them to 16 melee /17 ranged under Gaspy1.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Sept 18, 2017 14:03:04 GMT
Ignoring the recurring, long range, LOS ignoring and cover ignoring portions of this equation misses the point. Denny makes any gunline good, but this particular gunline is stronger than others not due to Denny but due to the resilience of recurring Ghost pirates. The argument really loses steam when you realize how afraid you are of RAT 4 POW 10 guns. Whopee, you're missing a khador jack half the time. If Denny1 didn't exist (if only...) then more people would run the stronger IMO melee build where you get them to 16 melee /17 ranged under Gaspy1. Its not like Denny is unique in having debuffs. I certainly am scared even shitty guns when they have access to infinity of them.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 18, 2017 14:04:26 GMT
... 1) Cryx vs Khador comparison is completely absurd and is getting old already. I'm tired of hearing about it after only playing for a year. I don't see how the veterans can listen to that crap again without losing their minds. Access to different buffs, different debuffs, different base statlines, and different support models. How people think direct stat-to-stat comparisons does ANYTHING is completely ridiculous. ... I get mad when people insist on not comparing across factions. MAT 7 on Khador isn't the same as MAT 6 on Circle. They both compare against the same DEF range, ie all the models. 4pt combat solo should be the same across all factions, WM is not more valuable in Circle than in PoM both get +1 die of damage. etc.. etc... And since everyone has the same 75+BG+theme budget the variance should be in what each faction is available and how those abilites play within the faction. A Gallows Grove should cost 2pts in every faction, if a Gallows Grove is not taken by a faction then it's the model that should change it should not go to 1pt in Cryx, for example, because they have Fast arc nodes...
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Sept 18, 2017 14:23:58 GMT
... 1) Cryx vs Khador comparison is completely absurd and is getting old already. I'm tired of hearing about it after only playing for a year. I don't see how the veterans can listen to that crap again without losing their minds. Access to different buffs, different debuffs, different base statlines, and different support models. How people think direct stat-to-stat comparisons does ANYTHING is completely ridiculous. ... I get mad when people insist on not comparing across factions. MAT 7 on Khador isn't the same as MAT 6 on Circle. They both compare against the same DEF range, ie all the models. 4pt combat solo should be the same across all factions, WM is not more valuable in Circle than in PoM both get +1 die of damage. etc.. etc... And since everyone has the same 75+BG+theme budget the variance should be in what each faction is available and how those abilites play within the faction. A Gallows Grove should cost 2pts in every faction, if a Gallows Grove is not taken by a faction then it's the model that should change it should not go to 1pt in Cryx, for example, because they have Fast arc nodes... I actually do not agree on this point. Abilities should be cheaper for the faction where they're the primary focus. If one of a faction's primary strengths is arc nodes, then it makes sense to give them cheap sources of arc nodes at a discount to encourage their use. This also helps to support any secondary traits of the faction that rely on those arc nodes (IE: spell spam). If a faction is not thematically meant to have them (or it's a rare resource in their geographic location: ie Khador), then any source of arc nodes that you DO give them should be expensive or unwieldly. This is both thematic and a balancing lever. Making everything the same cost makes game balance even more difficult, since changing the cost of that ability/model no longer affects one faction. It affects every faction using it. This is seen in any changes done to mercenaries or minions. Decoupling is a very important concept in both software and game design. One example of this is in MTG, where it's used extensively as a design goal. "Destroy target creature" costs less for Black than for any other color and it costs the most in White. Direct damage abilities cost less in Red than any other color. This reinforces the strengths of those subfactions while keeping outlier abilities from getting out of control. You'll see "draw x cards" in black, but it always comes at an additional cost compared to blue, keeping them from abusing the mechanic. I also don't agree on the stat comparison. Using the MAT/DEF example: while it is true that they are working against the same target numbers, that is where the comparison ends. The two factions will have different buffs affecting that MAT. Different debuffs affecting the DEF. Different methods of applying those buffs/debuffs (single target vs aoe vs pulse. Passive vs focus cost vs onhit.). Different opportunity costs for each (3 focus means something entirely different to a 5 focus caster than a 7 focus caster). Different amounts of free/open focus to hand out for Mat fixing beasts/jacks. Hell, they'll even have different goals regarding what they SHOULD be able to reliably hit, how often, how hard, and against what sort of targets.
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Post by tesoe on Sept 18, 2017 14:56:50 GMT
Are we still talking about the new Cryx theme, or just arguing about Khador?
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Sept 18, 2017 15:31:52 GMT
I'm just talking about the health of the game in general and trying not to call out any specific factions except for Cryx (since it's what I know best and it's a Cryx theme.).
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 15:43:01 GMT
So we have 80% of Khador casters who can make Khador jacks charge as far as an unbuffed Cryx jack (mind, charge, not run) and like 6 Cryx casters that can make Cryx jacks charge much farther than any Khador jack, but there are people in this thread saying Cryx is not faster than Khador... amazing. And when you point this out the answer is "but, but, but... Juggernaut hits harder!" Actually we have a couple Cryx casters who can compete with the best of Khadors. 80% of Khador casters get to Cryx's base line, but plenty of them go further. No caster in Cryx can bullet a jack further than Strakov1. The absolute best we can do is Aiakos2 bulleting Kharybdis for a 17" threat using Feat & Assail. Strakov1 can bullet any Khador heavy 19" + melee range. Cryx can't top that. Vlad1 gets to turn all his jacks speed 8 for a turn on top of Boundless Charge. Vlad3 hands out Infernal Machine & Side Step. Old Witch1 give apparition & has gallows pulls. So overall it's 80% of Khador casters get their jacks up to Cryx's baseline. 20% can Make Khador jacks better then Cryx's baseline & out threat every Cryx caster except Mortenebra1 & Aiakos2, and even they're still out threatened by Strakov1, all while Khador still hits harder. Vlad1 is the most popular Khador caster at the moment. He can threaten a fully loaded Juggernaut 14". Asphyxious3, Coven, and Goreshade3 cap at 12", Venethrax only gets his speed buff vs Living and he caps at 12", and Mortnebra2 only gets 13" on her own & requires Deathjack in range & able to cast spells if she wants to push it to 16". Here the big kick though, if Mortenebra1 or Aiakos want to compete with Vlad's threat range they have to blow their whole stack & in Aiakos's case his feat & that's all their doing. Mortenebra2 not only uses her whole stack, but she also uses Deathjack's activation & focus to pull it off. Vlad1 can send a Boundless Charged 2 Focused Juggernaut that charges for free 14" while also casting S&P to buff the giant mountain of Winter Guard he brought & thanks to Sac Pawn doesn't have to worry about the fact he's on 0 camp vs Cryx. So yes, Khador jacks are both faster & harder hitting then Cryx jacks. You have 2 casters who can make equal or faster jacks than Cryx (Vlad1 and Strakov1). I hope you realize Strakov can't efectively propel a jack 19" because the enemy model you charge has to be on Strakov's 12" control area so your hypothetical ultrafast Khador jack would have to charge from 7" behind Strakhov... so yeah, nice Theorymachine there, but that's not happening anytime soon.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 18, 2017 15:56:41 GMT
I actually do not agree on this point. Abilities should be cheaper for the faction where they're the primary focus. If one of a faction's primary strengths is arc nodes, then it makes sense to give them cheap sources of arc nodes at a discount to encourage their use. This also helps to support any secondary traits of the faction that rely on those arc nodes (IE: spell spam). If a faction is not thematically meant to have them (or it's a rare resource in their geographic location: ie Khador), then any source of arc nodes that you DO give them should be expensive or unwieldly. This is both thematic and a balancing lever. Making everything the same cost makes game balance even more difficult, since changing the cost of that ability/model no longer affects one faction. It affects every faction using it. This is seen in any changes done to mercenaries or minions. Decoupling is a very important concept in both software and game design. You say one thing but then seem to argue another... I don't agree that Nightwretch should cost more for Cygnar, for instance, than for Cryx. To me it's a question of should Cygnar have this model? Should Ret have a lancer? If the answer is yes then they should cost the same. Thematic is Khador not having an arc node not releasing a Nightwreth that costs 12 because it's Khador... Perhaps Khador can have a very expensive arc node as a character jack but that jack should cost the same in any other faction. Balance is achieved by being the only character in Khador not by being overpriced. One example of this is in MTG, where it's used extensively as a design goal. "Destroy target creature" costs less for Black than for any other color and it costs the most in White. Direct damage abilities cost less in Red than any other color. This reinforces the strengths of those subfactions while keeping outlier abilities from getting out of control. You'll see "draw x cards" in black, but it always comes at an additional cost compared to blue, keeping them from abusing the mechanic. I'll use Swords to Plowshares or any of the other W cost removal spells to rebutt your argument. Furthermore in MTG spells and creatures are not created equal this is by design and transparent. PP cannot make the same bold move and say this mini is meant to be crap and that one meant to be awesome... It happens but it can't be that prevalent since this is not a CCG and people only buy what they want. I also don't agree on the stat comparison. Using the MAT/DEF example: while it is true that they are working against the same target numbers, that is where the comparison ends. The two factions will have different buffs affecting that MAT. Different debuffs affecting the DEF. Different methods of applying those buffs/debuffs (single target vs aoe vs pulse. Passive vs focus cost vs onhit.). Different opportunity costs for each (3 focus means something entirely different to a 5 focus caster than a 7 focus caster). Different amounts of free/open focus to hand out for Mat fixing beasts/jacks. Hell, they'll even have different goals regarding what they SHOULD be able to reliably hit, how often, how hard, and against what sort of targets. Buffs/Debuffs abilities should be part of the cost of a unit but not the possible buffs they can get. If that were so a unit of Crap thralls would cost as much as a colossal when taken with Denny. The possibility of buffs within a faction should be balanced ofc, just not on the recepients cost...
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Post by tesoe on Sept 18, 2017 16:41:40 GMT
I feel like a conversation about the general health of the game is a bit off topic for a thread about a specific theme list. Could a new thread be started instead?
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Post by Aegis on Sept 18, 2017 17:01:18 GMT
I actually do not agree on this point. Abilities should be cheaper for the faction where they're the primary focus. If one of a faction's primary strengths is arc nodes, then it makes sense to give them cheap sources of arc nodes at a discount to encourage their use. This also helps to support any secondary traits of the faction that rely on those arc nodes (IE: spell spam). If a faction is not thematically meant to have them (or it's a rare resource in their geographic location: ie Khador), then any source of arc nodes that you DO give them should be expensive or unwieldly. This is both thematic and a balancing lever. Making everything the same cost makes game balance even more difficult, since changing the cost of that ability/model no longer affects one faction. It affects every faction using it. This is seen in any changes done to mercenaries or minions. Decoupling is a very important concept in both software and game design. You say one thing but then seem to argue another... I don't agree that Nightwretch should cost more for Cygnar, for instance, than for Cryx. To me it's a question of should Cygnar have this model? Should Ret have a lancer? If the answer is yes then they should cost the same. Thematic is Khador not having an arc node not releasing a Nightwreth that costs 12 because it's Khador... Perhaps Khador can have a very expensive arc node as a character jack but that jack should cost the same in any other faction. Balance is achieved by being the only character in Khador not by being overpriced. It depends. If Khador casters are balanced toward not having an Arc Node, and an Arc Node is a tool significantly better in Khador than in other factions, there Arc Nodes should cost more. To make another example, if Khador was going to get a caster-indipendent ARM buff like Cygnar Journeyman, it should cost A LOT more than in Cygnar, since the power that that piece would express in Khador would be a lot more than what he expresses in Cygnar due to Khador native high ARM. On the other side, ranged damage buffs that Khador has access to, in the event they would become available to Cygnar, should cost a lot more since Cygnar would have the capability to make those buffs a lot more relevant than Khador can, since Cygnar generically has better guns than Khador. Points are an expression of how powerful a piece is. The more a piece has impact on the game, the more it should cost. The same mechanic can have different impact in different factions, since the interactions are different, and that is why some similar pieces are costed differently across different factions. That becomes even more evident cross-system, where the ability of warbeast to boost their attacks without draining resources from the caster, and without an hard limit on the total number of furies that can be spent in a single turn has to be taken in consideration toward multiple things. We can discuss forever on if those different things are correctly weighted at the moment, since that is subjective, but saying that thing X should cost the same in every faction is wrong since the same things perform differently in different environments.
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 18, 2017 17:27:51 GMT
Actually we have a couple Cryx casters who can compete with the best of Khadors. 80% of Khador casters get to Cryx's base line, but plenty of them go further. No caster in Cryx can bullet a jack further than Strakov1. The absolute best we can do is Aiakos2 bulleting Kharybdis for a 17" threat using Feat & Assail. Strakov1 can bullet any Khador heavy 19" + melee range. Cryx can't top that. Vlad1 gets to turn all his jacks speed 8 for a turn on top of Boundless Charge. Vlad3 hands out Infernal Machine & Side Step. Old Witch1 give apparition & has gallows pulls. So overall it's 80% of Khador casters get their jacks up to Cryx's baseline. 20% can Make Khador jacks better then Cryx's baseline & out threat every Cryx caster except Mortenebra1 & Aiakos2, and even they're still out threatened by Strakov1, all while Khador still hits harder. Vlad1 is the most popular Khador caster at the moment. He can threaten a fully loaded Juggernaut 14". Asphyxious3, Coven, and Goreshade3 cap at 12", Venethrax only gets his speed buff vs Living and he caps at 12", and Mortnebra2 only gets 13" on her own & requires Deathjack in range & able to cast spells if she wants to push it to 16". Here the big kick though, if Mortenebra1 or Aiakos want to compete with Vlad's threat range they have to blow their whole stack & in Aiakos's case his feat & that's all their doing. Mortenebra2 not only uses her whole stack, but she also uses Deathjack's activation & focus to pull it off. Vlad1 can send a Boundless Charged 2 Focused Juggernaut that charges for free 14" while also casting S&P to buff the giant mountain of Winter Guard he brought & thanks to Sac Pawn doesn't have to worry about the fact he's on 0 camp vs Cryx. So yes, Khador jacks are both faster & harder hitting then Cryx jacks. You have 2 casters who can make equal or faster jacks than Cryx (Vlad1 and Strakov1). I hope you realize Strakov can't efectively propel a jack 19" because the enemy model you charge has to be on Strakov's 12" control area so your hypothetical ultrafast Khador jack would have to charge from 7" behind Strakhov... so yeah, nice Theorymachine there, but that's not happening anytime soon. Its not like strakov can use his movement to move forward and then feat. Idk strakovs speed but i think it's at least 6. So something 18 inches away from strakov can get charged. Nice lack of common sense there. Not every tactic will be handed to you on a silver platter. you evolved with a very large brain to body size compared to most species, try using it sometimes.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Sept 18, 2017 17:30:04 GMT
It depends. If Khador casters are balanced toward not having an Arc Node, and an Arc Node is a tool significantly better in Khador than in other factions, there Arc Nodes should cost more. To make another example, where Khador going to get a caster-indipendent ARM buff like Cygnar Journeyman, it should cost A LOT more than in Cygnar, since the power that that piece would express in Khador would be a lot more than what he expresses in Cygnar due to Khador native high ARM. On the other side, ranged damage buffs that Khador has access to, in the event they would become available to Cygnar, should cost a lot more since Cygnar would have the capability to make those buffs a lot more relevant than Khador can, since Cygnar generically has better guns than Khador. Points are an expression of how powerful a piece is. The more a piece has impact on the game, the more it should cost. The same mechanic can have different impact in different factions, since the interactions are different, and that is why some similar pieces are costed differently across different factions. That becomes even more evident cross-system, where the ability of warbeast to boost their attacks without draining resources from the caster, and without an hard limit on the total number of furies that can be spent in a single turn has to be taken in consideration toward multiple things. We can discuss forever on if those different things are correctly weighted at the moment, since that is subjective, but saying that thing X should cost the same in every faction is wrong since the same things perform differently in different environments. Thank you for stating that much more eloquently than I did.
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Post by Swampmist on Sept 18, 2017 17:34:13 GMT
You have 2 casters who can make equal or faster jacks than Cryx (Vlad1 and Strakov1). I hope you realize Strakov can't efectively propel a jack 19" because the enemy model you charge has to be on Strakov's 12" control area so your hypothetical ultrafast Khador jack would have to charge from 7" behind Strakhov... so yeah, nice Theorymachine there, but that's not happening anytime soon. Its not like strakov can use his movement to move forward and then feat. Idk strakovs speed but i think it's at least 6. So something 18 inches away from strakov can get charged. Nice lack of common sense there. Not every tactic will be handed to you on a silver platter. you evolved with a very large brain to body size compared to most species, try using it sometimes. Can Strak Feat on himself? would be a good way to extend it super far, if you don't mind possibly dying right after.
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Post by Aegis on Sept 18, 2017 18:04:51 GMT
Nice lack of common sense there. Not every tactic will be handed to you on a silver platter. you evolved with a very large brain to body size compared to most species, try using it sometimes. Leaving aside the argument itself, may I suggest to not comment on other people supposed lack of common sense or lack of use of their brains?You can counter other people points without attacking them personally or even worse imply between the lines that they are stupid.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 18:33:08 GMT
You have 2 casters who can make equal or faster jacks than Cryx (Vlad1 and Strakov1). I hope you realize Strakov can't efectively propel a jack 19" because the enemy model you charge has to be on Strakov's 12" control area so your hypothetical ultrafast Khador jack would have to charge from 7" behind Strakhov... so yeah, nice Theorymachine there, but that's not happening anytime soon. Its not like strakov can use his movement to move forward and then feat. Idk strakovs speed but i think it's at least 6. So something 18 inches away from strakov can get charged. Nice lack of common sense there. Not every tactic will be handed to you on a silver platter. you evolved with a very large brain to body size compared to most species, try using it sometimes. So coming down to insults when you run out of arguments... classy And yes, I'm sure such a brilliant player like yourself is keeping Strakhov in front or on par with his jacks so he can be assassinated to prove he can send a jack far far away. No wonder you keep arguing Khador jacks are faster than Cryx', it all makes sense now.
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