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Post by Cryptix on Sept 17, 2017 17:02:51 GMT
They are only one of these things, I'll let you guess wh7ch one Two of those things. Speed 6 is pretty exceptional. Get over it. Eh, got me there. I still want Boundless Charge >.>
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 17, 2017 17:10:05 GMT
Two of those things. Speed 6 is pretty exceptional. Get over it. Eh, got me there. I still want Boundless Charge >.> Really the Bonejacks are on the very cheap end of thinsg despite having very solid utility. With Exceptions, most of Cryxes stuff IS on the cheap end, or has abilities most other factions don't get outside of character stuff or more expensive end abilities. Its just the complexity of Dark Shroud, which makes having baseline high POW cryx jacks difficult to balance. I mean I get you can WANT boundless charge but does Cryx Deserve it? Like I may want Arcnodes in Khador, or better magic weapon or recursion.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 17, 2017 18:33:34 GMT
My first faction is Legion, Aegis. My third is Circle, where I surprisingly shoot more than I do in Legion. I'm not coming at this from a "I want all shooting to suck" point of view. I just want pure gunlines to be non-viable, as they create awful games (from both sides on occasion, but most often on the wrong end of the guns). -und_Ed Then kindly ask pp not to make pure gunline themes. Over here in Skorneville, Winds of Death was crap before the battle engine update. We're crutching on derpy to hold up the theme. I'd like some sort of melee unit in the theme, but alas, tis not allowed.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 17, 2017 19:07:02 GMT
Cryx are already cheap, and the theme already makes them cheaper. 3 bonejacks for free is awesome.
They are already fast. Speed 6 on a heavy is premium quality. Only super fragile flying stuff gets higher speed.
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Post by borderprince on Sept 17, 2017 19:29:14 GMT
Defense 13 as well. Defense 13 was mostly a meh bonus but combined with the Carapace it really requires hard hitting and accurate shooting all the time. DEF13 used to be a good melee stat too - remember when Khador jacks were MAT6? That DEF13 meant that jacks generally needed to boost to hit Cryx Helljacks reliably at range or in melee (Cygnar MAT7 jacks were the exception, but they really were exceptional back in Mk2), and in a context where focus was harder to come by. Cryx jacks really needed a total rethink for Mk3 - their best defensive stat (DEF) became relatively less powerful, while boosting to hit/damage became more available. Carapace is an attempt to address the issue, but not one I think that makes much sense thematically. Something like hyper-aggressive on helljacks might have been interesting instead, and fit more with the idea of Cryxian jacks as murderous machines.
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Post by gobber on Sept 17, 2017 19:36:21 GMT
Carapace is an attempt to address the issue, but not one I think that makes much sense thematically. Something like hyper-aggressive on helljacks might have been interesting instead, and fit more with the idea of Cryxian jacks as murderous machines. Infernal machines grants all jacks hyper-aggressive and has been an entirely underwhelming jack theme.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 17, 2017 19:44:25 GMT
DEF13 used to be a good melee stat too - remember when Khador jacks were MAT6? That DEF13 meant that jacks generally needed to boost to hit Cryx Helljacks reliably at range or in melee (Cygnar MAT7 jacks were the exception, but they really were exceptional back in Mk2), and in a context where focus was harder to come by. Cryx jacks really needed a total rethink for Mk3 - their best defensive stat (DEF) became relatively less powerful, while boosting to hit/damage became more available. Carapace is an attempt to address the issue, but not one I think that makes much sense thematically. Something like hyper-aggressive on helljacks might have been interesting instead, and fit more with the idea of Cryxian jacks as murderous machines. A couple of things: The lower average MAT Made Khadoran Jacks in many ways an unworthy investment since they still stand on the more expensive end of Jacks but are also slow. You can argue that they are overpowered (I won't) but I can say nicely that they can be meta bending. It can be said similarly of Menoth Jacks, however, they ARE genuinely cheaper as well as having access to the choir making the damage/ accuracy bend much more efficient for them then Khador. The average MAT really didn't go up all that much. Just with pre-measuring aiming became a thing and with aiming that's better ranged accuracy so hitting them better. Generally Defense based skews are harder to bypass then armor because Armor can be charged making the number swing higher ensuring that even a weak charge has a chance against high armor. However defense is much more binary. There are generally no inbuilt way of overcoming defense that don't also include hitting the opponent or getting lucky.
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Post by dazzla on Sept 17, 2017 22:01:50 GMT
I think people overestimate how good carapace is against shooting on base arm 17 box 28 heavies for 10. It does not magically turn them into Karchev Mad dog brick. Something like Shadow pack or Passage counters shooting harder. Vlad-tier of ranged damage backed up by heavy presence for dealing with arm 18 base jacks should still be okay. And then there's stuff like Nemo3 who just ignores caparace altogether. I also think people extrapolate what they already hate about Cryx on their jack lists. It won't be the same. Denny or Coven can't do all their tricks while powering up 8 jacks at the same time. In fact they do nothing for jacks and such list would perform godawful. Cryx jack lists will be entirely new thing with casters that are not popular currently, no idea how good those will be. I don't even think Industries + Fleet will create particularly bad chicken pair, since Fleet is quite good against shooting already. And if it does then Fleet is a problem list, not the Industries. Theme creep is baffling though. We're 1 year into mk3 and some factions still don't have properly functioning themes for their main models, while others get everything and more. Where is Warpwolf theme? Where is Skorne infantry theme? Where is working Troll non-beast theme? I think carapace is exceptionally good against shooting. I cannot see how it can't be unless armour and damage no longer matter. A number of cryx jacks are Armour 18 and 30 boxes. And how does Nemo 3 just ignore carapace?
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 17, 2017 22:23:41 GMT
I think people overestimate how good carapace is against shooting on base arm 17 box 28 heavies for 10. It does not magically turn them into Karchev Mad dog brick. Something like Shadow pack or Passage counters shooting harder. Vlad-tier of ranged damage backed up by heavy presence for dealing with arm 18 base jacks should still be okay. And then there's stuff like Nemo3 who just ignores caparace altogether. I also think people extrapolate what they already hate about Cryx on their jack lists. It won't be the same. Denny or Coven can't do all their tricks while powering up 8 jacks at the same time. In fact they do nothing for jacks and such list would perform godawful. Cryx jack lists will be entirely new thing with casters that are not popular currently, no idea how good those will be. I don't even think Industries + Fleet will create particularly bad chicken pair, since Fleet is quite good against shooting already. And if it does then Fleet is a problem list, not the Industries. Theme creep is baffling though. We're 1 year into mk3 and some factions still don't have properly functioning themes for their main models, while others get everything and more. Where is Warpwolf theme? Where is Skorne infantry theme? Where is working Troll non-beast theme? I think carapace is exceptionally good against shooting. I cannot see how it can't be unless armour and damage no longer matter. A number of cryx jacks are Armour 18 and 30 boxes. And how does Nemo 3 just ignore carapace? Elecroleap is not a ranged attack, so each one is still going to take off 4-5 boxes.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 17, 2017 22:38:39 GMT
13/21 is a crazy good statline into guns that is in no way thematic for Cryx jacks. They are supposed to be cheap, fast, and fragile. Mechanically, they trade armor and boxes for: Good def Good spd Low cost Extra initials from tusks on some of them With universal Carapace, they don't have much in terms of weaknesses. They can't die (or be significantly weakened) to guns. And they outthreaten most heavies thanks to their speed. Once they hit their target, killing them in melee won't recoup enough points because they are cheap. And Cryx heavies kill darn near anything once a debuff is applied, so they've likely already traded up. What am I missing? How does Carapace not tilt Cryx heavies into ludicrous power? Since it was released, people have Female Doged about Heavy Metal being unrestrictive and powerful. But Black Industries is somehow fine? It has the same or better benefits. +2" deployment on each Cygnar gets up to 17 points of free solos Cryx gets up to 21 points of warjacks Cygnar gets repo 3 on solos Cryx gets universal Carapace Cygnar gets to take Sword Knights Cryx gets to take Cephelax and a Merc unit of their choice And my point IS NOT that Heavy Metal is bad. HM is very strong. But Black Industries is better in almost every respect. Cryx is not a weak faction, and I refuse to act like they need some crazy defensive bonus to run jacks. Then why were there practically 0 heavy Warjacks in competitive Cryx list pairs? Here's the difference, before Heavy Metal, I still saw Cygnar Heavies. Stormclads, Centurians, & Character Heavies quite regularly. Where are the Cryx heavies? High speed, yea okay. Every single Khador caster bar 2 has a way of turning Khador jacks up to speed 6+. Cryx has 5 casters that can speed their jacks up to out speed Khador jacks. The majority of the time Cryx jacks will end up being slower than Khador jacks. They're not that fast as Cryx as a faction does not contain many speed buffs. Low cost? Compared to what, the overcosted Warbeasts that Hordes players have been complaining about for a year? Are you really going to tell me Slayers compare favorably to Marauders & Crucaders, Seethers compare favorable to Juggernauts or a Sphinx, & Leviathans are that much better than Reckoners or Decimators? Cryx heavies are not cheap compared to the heavies of other Warmachine factions. The simple truth is that Cryx heavies don't see much play because they get their arms shot off before they ever make it to melee. If you want competitive Cryx to do anything other than bring Deneghra1 & Coven & actually play their jack Casters you need to make it worthwile to actually bring fragile melee jacks. Before this theme how many competitive Cryx lists were actually being played with the likes of Venethrax or Mortenebra1? Is it really a problem to print a good theme that incentivzes Cryx players to leave Deneghra1 at home in favor of currently underplayed casters?
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Post by dazzla on Sept 17, 2017 22:40:45 GMT
I think carapace is exceptionally good against shooting. I cannot see how it can't be unless armour and damage no longer matter. A number of cryx jacks are Armour 18 and 30 boxes. And how does Nemo 3 just ignore carapace? Elecroleap is not a ranged attack, so each one is still going to take off 4-5 boxes. Yes, electroleaps are not ranged attacks and not affected by carapace. Just like melee attacks (except free strikes) are not affected. But how is the ranged attack that directly targets a cryx jack completely ignored?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 17, 2017 23:34:01 GMT
Elecroleap is not a ranged attack, so each one is still going to take off 4-5 boxes. Yes, electroleaps are not ranged attacks and not affected by carapace. Just like melee attacks (except free strikes) are not affected. But how is the ranged attack that directly targets a cryx jack completely ignored? Because Nemo3 isn't killing the jacks with ranged attacks, he's killing them with boosted pow 12 Electro leaps that hit the Slayer/Seether Chasis at dice -5 & the crab Chasis at dice -6 that can also possibly cause disruption preventing any meaningful retaliation even if jacks survives. The initial ranged attacks don't need to do any damage for the Cryx army to be utterly devastated.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 17, 2017 23:47:11 GMT
Dice -5 and dice -6 Even with 3 dice for the leaps does not typically give me a feeling that an army will be devestated.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 0:11:24 GMT
Dice -5 and dice -6 Even with 3 dice for the leaps does not typically give me a feeling that an army will be devestated. Disrupted Cryx jacks with no arms are pretty devestated.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 18, 2017 0:42:42 GMT
Lancer Spam and a Hurricane also make them sad. That was a surreal list...
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