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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 18, 2017 2:42:04 GMT
13/21 is a crazy good statline into guns that is in no way thematic for Cryx jacks. They are supposed to be cheap, fast, and fragile. Mechanically, they trade armor and boxes for: Good def Good spd Low cost Extra initials from tusks on some of them With universal Carapace, they don't have much in terms of weaknesses. They can't die (or be significantly weakened) to guns. And they outthreaten most heavies thanks to their speed. Once they hit their target, killing them in melee won't recoup enough points because they are cheap. And Cryx heavies kill darn near anything once a debuff is applied, so they've likely already traded up. What am I missing? How does Carapace not tilt Cryx heavies into ludicrous power? Since it was released, people have Female Doged about Heavy Metal being unrestrictive and powerful. But Black Industries is somehow fine? It has the same or better benefits. +2" deployment on each Cygnar gets up to 17 points of free solos Cryx gets up to 21 points of warjacks Cygnar gets repo 3 on solos Cryx gets universal Carapace Cygnar gets to take Sword Knights Cryx gets to take Cephelax and a Merc unit of their choice And my point IS NOT that Heavy Metal is bad. HM is very strong. But Black Industries is better in almost every respect. Cryx is not a weak faction, and I refuse to act like they need some crazy defensive bonus to run jacks. I just want to ask; how many Cryx jacks that fit the fast/cheap/fragile points have guns? How much in Cryx actually has a gun of any flavor to make up for running 2 turns just to be in position to charge on turn 3 vs gunlines? Cryx gun jacks are crab jacks; speed 4 def 12 arm 18. Low pow decent range, odd ball mechanics. Then there's the corrupter...if you're really desperate. I understand the sentiment. It's a fantastic rule to hand out. I'd love to see it on warbeasts that could actually GROW a carapace. *cough dragon cancer Still, this doesn't scream "tech against me!". Even though that doesn't seem to be letting up anytime soon... Each theme specializes to one skew or another. It's easily dealt with in that most lists that deal with armor can easily deal with a bunch of paperwieght Slayers. Super gun boat factions even have the tools. Styker 2 or 3, Jakes 2, Seige 1, Kraye, Maddox all can put some ridiculous hurt on cryx jacks with some simple melee options. Naked Hammer smiths hit for even dice. Stormlances are dice off 1 I think (in the near future). I will take a DI Slayer spam opponent over a Khador Jaws theme any day. Though I wonder how fun the Kraken would be in this theme.
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Post by gobber on Sept 18, 2017 2:44:27 GMT
I just want to ask; how many Cryx jacks that fit the fast/cheap/fragile points have guns? How much in Cryx actually has a gun of any flavor to make up for running 2 turns just to be in position to charge on turn 3 vs gunlines? Cryx gun jacks are crab jacks; speed 4 def 12 arm 18. Low pow decent range, odd ball mechanics. Then there's the corrupter...if you're really desperate. Crabjacks are spd5.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 2:45:17 GMT
Two of those things. Speed 6 is pretty exceptional. Get over it. Eh, got me there. I still want Boundless Charge >.> So you have to waste Focus to have the same threat range you already have for free because your jacks are SPD 4?
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 18, 2017 2:47:49 GMT
Eh, got me there. I still want Boundless Charge >.> So you have to waste Focus to have the same threat range you already have for free because your jacks are SPD 4? Do we really have to go through this again? Everyone knows Khador being slow is an illusion when pretty much every caster has a movement buff.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 2:53:12 GMT
Again I ask you: if you have a +2 movement buff (the usual one, you can check how many Khador casters can get more than +2 movement buffs on jacks: 3 of them, with one being Butcher2 triggering Conferred Rage) that costs focus and your jacks are SPD 4, how is that better than having native SPD 6 for free? And when your SPD 6 jacks actually get a +2 buff, isn't that faster than having it on a SPD 4 jack?
Just confused because it seems like basic math to me.
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 18, 2017 2:55:19 GMT
Again I ask you: if you have a +2 movement buff (the usual one) and your jacks are SPD 4, how is that better than having native SPD 6? And when your SPD 6 jacks actually get a +2 buff, isn't that faster than having it on a SPD 4 jack? Just confused because it seems like basic math to me. Pathfinder and charge for free
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 3:09:01 GMT
So I waste 1 focus from a 6 focus caster (free charges are 1 focus, BC is 2) to get a situational bonus (Pathfinder) and the same speed Cryx has on almost all their heavies, but somehow Cryx is not faster? Now let's imagine we are both running 6+ jacks... how is Khador faster again? And what happens when Cryx plays a caster with speed buffs? How fast do Khador heavies run so you can position to secure scenario?
Khador trades SPD/SPD for ARM, Cryx trades ARM for SPD/DEF, except... not anymore now. Now Khador still has the boxes, while Cryx still has the multiple attacks.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 18, 2017 3:26:20 GMT
Because Cryx has two casters with Speed Buffs. Guess how many Khador has.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 18, 2017 3:54:37 GMT
Because Cryx has two casters with Speed Buffs. Guess how many Khador has. That's just untrue. The following Cryx Casters have direct speed buff spells/feats: Gaspy3 Aikos2 Goreshade3 Venny Mortenebra2 Coven Other ways to deliver jacks via movement Casters with Ghostly to hand out (Aggathia, Denny1 and 3, Mortenebra1, Coven) Goresgade1 (Soul Gate) Goreshade2 (Apparition) Scaverous (TK)
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 18, 2017 3:54:45 GMT
Because Cryx has two casters with Speed Buffs. Guess how many Khador has. ....And Khador has only 1 caster with a Debuff spell. Whats your point? Also lies if your counting speed buffs that don't effect your entire battlegroup. People point to this all the time with Khador but thats still frikkin focus. Only OW1 has a always on speed buff, the rest drains it directly out of your focus sash. "To enable a Khadoran Warjack to even COMPETE with what a Cryx Caster has access to by default they must spend 1/3 of their focus stuff every turn that is if this spell is even a battlegroup based one and not just one that would only speed up a jack at a time"
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 4:39:19 GMT
Because Cryx has two casters with Speed Buffs. Guess how many Khador has. ....And Khador has only 1 caster with a Debuff spell. Whats your point? Also lies if your counting speed buffs that don't effect your entire battlegroup. People point to this all the time with Khador but thats still frikkin focus. Only OW1 has a always on speed buff, the rest drains it directly out of your focus sash. "To enable a Khadoran Warjack to even COMPETE with what a Cryx Caster has access to by default they must spend 1/3 of their focus stuff every turn that is if this spell is even a battlegroup based one and not just one that would only speed up a jack at a time" A Cryx Warcaster also needs to spend 50% of their focus stack just to make a Seether hit as hard as a Juggernaut, because Cryx wasn't blessed with base pow 19 on anything but Colossals. Our nonCharacter jacks all hit at Pow 16 or 17. So we need to spend 50% just to compete with Khador's damage output. This goes both ways.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 18, 2017 4:42:35 GMT
You do also have access to in-faction caster-less armor debuffs so it's still a comparison that Cryx wins . But in general cryx jacks hit weaker then Khadoran Jacks.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Sept 18, 2017 4:46:16 GMT
You do also have access to in-faction caster-less armor debuffs so it's still a comparison that Cryx wins . But in general cryx jacks hit weaker then Khadoran Jacks. Last time I checked Bane Warriors & Wraith Engines weren't included in Black Industries so I'm not sure how that's relevant.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 18, 2017 4:54:24 GMT
Last time I checked Bane Warriors & Wraith Engines weren't included in Black Industries so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Iron Lich Overseer =P Why do I have to be the one finding what Cryx can do in its own theme lists?
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Post by Aegis on Sept 18, 2017 5:24:44 GMT
Yes, electroleaps are not ranged attacks and not affected by carapace. Just like melee attacks (except free strikes) are not affected. But how is the ranged attack that directly targets a cryx jack completely ignored? Because Nemo3 isn't killing the jacks with ranged attacks, he's killing them with boosted pow 12 Electro leaps that hit the Slayer/Seether Chasis at dice -5 & the crab Chasis at dice -6 that can also possibly cause disruption preventing any meaningful retaliation even if jacks survives. The initial ranged attacks don't need to do any damage for the Cryx army to be utterly devastated. How should E-Leaps causing Disruption? o.O Aren't you mixing thing quite a bit up?
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