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Post by AdeptusB on Apr 20, 2017 2:06:02 GMT
I think their "gateway drug" system of board games they've been releasing recently has been a really good way to get people into the hobby, and, also, their simplified 40K box-sets that you can get at *GAME* in the UK, so that gets the video game-playing crowd onto the miniatures too. Yeah, I totally agree. I was first drawn into GW's systems via Necromunda and Mordheim. When GW decided to ditch everything but their 'big two', thus requiring a massive buy-in just for a minimum playable force, I thought it was a terrible idea, and the market seemed to agree. Now that they've reversed course and are putting out small-scale games again, their sales are soaring.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 20, 2017 10:04:39 GMT
Well, they did fall. Their stocks dropped, their popularity dropped, stores started closing up all over (it went from something like 5 stores locally to 1 store), and dozens of other wargames sprung up in their wake and started claiming all their former players. It was probably folly to assume that they would just continue to perpetually free-fall and not realize it was happening, however. They did, and they changed some of the stuff that was a problem, and now they're stabilizing because of it. To actually completely fall, they would have had to screw up royally, and then proceed to do nothing about it for however long it would have taken for them to go bankrupt or get bought out or whatever. I guess not even GW can pull that level of negligence. That's not exactly a fall. Frankly after each of their serious mistakes, I expect it to be their last, but it never is.
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Post by pangurban on Apr 20, 2017 12:14:34 GMT
Well, they did fall. Their stocks dropped, their popularity dropped, stores started closing up all over (it went from something like 5 stores locally to 1 store), and dozens of other wargames sprung up in their wake and started claiming all their former players. It was probably folly to assume that they would just continue to perpetually free-fall and not realize it was happening, however. They did, and they changed some of the stuff that was a problem, and now they're stabilizing because of it. To actually completely fall, they would have had to screw up royally, and then proceed to do nothing about it for however long it would have taken for them to go bankrupt or get bought out or whatever. I guess not even GW can pull that level of negligence. That's not exactly a fall. Frankly after each of their serious mistakes, I expect it to be their last, but it never is. They're still in a pretty comfy position. Far too comfy to fall easily. GW has competition, but nobody's really trying to kill them off (if that were even possible). They have a solid chunk of fanbase they'd just about have to cut off to get them to stop buying models. They generate income, real, meaningful income, from several sources other than minis, and they've diversified their minis-based products. They have well-liked IPs doing nothing that they can revive for a quick financial boosts. They still have their own stores, even if a lot fewer of them now. Rules aside, the quality of their models is very, very high if you look at the price. I'd be utterly amazed if GW got themselves into a hole deeper than they can dig themselves out of anytime soon.
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Apr 20, 2017 12:37:25 GMT
I have removed the off-topic stuff. Please keep things on topic in the future, boys and girls.
If people want the removed posts to be merged into a new thread, contact me through PM. Do not ask for it in this thread.
Ryilan
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 20, 2017 14:23:36 GMT
Well, they did fall. Their stocks dropped, their popularity dropped, stores started closing up all over (it went from something like 5 stores locally to 1 store), and dozens of other wargames sprung up in their wake and started claiming all their former players. It was probably folly to assume that they would just continue to perpetually free-fall and not realize it was happening, however. They did, and they changed some of the stuff that was a problem, and now they're stabilizing because of it. To actually completely fall, they would have had to screw up royally, and then proceed to do nothing about it for however long it would have taken for them to go bankrupt or get bought out or whatever. I guess not even GW can pull that level of negligence. That's not exactly a fall. Frankly after each of their serious mistakes, I expect it to be their last, but it never is. I count that as a fall, but they smartened up before it caused too much damage. But honestly, that's what we all wanted, right? When the company does something dumb at the customer's expense, we hope that they will lose enough business to realize they've erred and then correct their mistake. And it looks like that has more or less happened.
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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 20, 2017 15:14:00 GMT
I think that the thing that will foreever keep gw afloat is that their miniatures and macroatures look super good. If they keep making pretty miniatures people will but then even if they convert them for use in another game.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 20, 2017 15:49:33 GMT
That's not exactly a fall. Frankly after each of their serious mistakes, I expect it to be their last, but it never is. I count that as a fall, but they smartened up before it caused too much damage. But honestly, that's what we all wanted, right? When the company does something dumb at the customer's expense, we hope that they will lose enough business to realize they've erred and then correct their mistake. And it looks like that has more or less happened. While they did lose fairly significant market share they are still a dominant force in wargaming, just no longer the dominant force. I don't think that they're too big to fail, but I do think that a company of that size will take a while to fail properly, so I think you're right about them doing something about a dip in their share prices before they lost too much damage. I'm still not convinced of their sincerity, but they are making fewer moves that are so easily mocked or derided lately and even seem to be making one or two that they should have been making years ago (like reinstating BloodBowl and Necromunda). I think that the thing that will foreever keep gw afloat is that their miniatures and macroatures look super good. If they keep making pretty miniatures people will but then even if they convert them for use in another game. Actually, thinking about it, I remember reading somewhere that they make more money on licences for computer games than miniatures. I think it may have been their 2015/2016 annual report.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Apr 20, 2017 15:55:29 GMT
I think that the thing that will foreever keep gw afloat is that their miniatures and macroatures look super good. If they keep making pretty miniatures people will but then even if they convert them for use in another game. This and the idea of the diversification. Even to a non-nerd you can say "Space marines" and there's a decent chance that they picture exactly the same thing a longtime GW fanboy does. They've cornered the market on that look, on cool gothic future sci-fi combat. They've branched that out to video games, PnP. comics, novels, etc., and its ubiquitous now. At the end of the day, I don't see anyone competing for that niche.
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Post by AdeptusB on Apr 20, 2017 21:02:35 GMT
I think that the thing that will foreever keep gw afloat is that their miniatures and macroatures look super good. If they keep making pretty miniatures people will but then even if they convert them for use in another game. I agree that their minis look good (with some exceptions...), but what really keeps GW afloat is the massive fanbase of the 40Kverse. I remember when Rackham/Confrontation first appeared around- what was it, 2000? Their minis were for the most part drastically better than what GW was putting out at the time, but they remained a mere blip in the tabletop wargame market because they just couldn't challenge GW's IP.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 20, 2017 23:13:52 GMT
I count that as a fall, but they smartened up before it caused too much damage. But honestly, that's what we all wanted, right? When the company does something dumb at the customer's expense, we hope that they will lose enough business to realize they've erred and then correct their mistake. And it looks like that has more or less happened. While they did lose fairly significant market share they are still a dominant force in wargaming, just no longer the dominant force. I don't think that they're too big to fail, but I do think that a company of that size will take a while to fail properly, so I think you're right about them doing something about a dip in their share prices before they lost too much damage. I'm still not convinced of their sincerity, but they are making fewer moves that are so easily mocked or derided lately and even seem to be making one or two that they should have been making years ago (like reinstating BloodBowl and Necromunda). I think that the thing that will foreever keep gw afloat is that their miniatures and macroatures look super good. If they keep making pretty miniatures people will but then even if they convert them for use in another game. Actually, thinking about it, I remember reading somewhere that they make more money on licences for computer games than miniatures. I think it may have been their 2015/2016 annual report. I'm willing to just shrug at their sincerity, really. It could all be a plot to get more customers, and as long as those customers are happy it doesn't really matter to me where their heart is at on the matter. I can beleive that they are making a lot on the video games too, honestly. I play Eternal Crusade and it's seen a huge surge in activity over the past month, while dawn of war 3 is just around the corner as well.
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Xarlaxas
Junior Strategist
Hoards models more than he plays.
Posts: 192
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Post by Xarlaxas on Apr 20, 2017 23:35:24 GMT
I'm willing to just shrug at their sincerity, really. It could all be a plot to get more customers, and as long as those customers are happy it doesn't really matter to me where their heart is at on the matter. At the end of the day, everything a company does (especially a publicly traded one) is probably a plot to get more customers, whether it's one that current customers will like or not is a different matter. From what I can see though, they really seem to be trying to pull back the customers they may have lost in the past, Blood Bowl, Shadow War, the upcoming return of the movement stat (and other 2nd ed stuff) really seems to be a push to get the old guard back. I've not done any market research (and they possibly haven't either) but the GW veterans from 2nd ed etc. are likely to be at the age that they have kids etc. so, bringing back an old guard player could mean getting their kids hooked too, so it's extra value. . . .
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 20, 2017 23:39:46 GMT
I'm willing to just shrug at their sincerity, really. It could all be a plot to get more customers, and as long as those customers are happy it doesn't really matter to me where their heart is at on the matter. I've not done any market research (and they possibly haven't either) but the GW veterans from 2nd ed etc. are likely to be at the age that they have kids etc. so, bringing back an old guard player could mean getting their kids hooked too, so it's extra value. . . . I actually know someone who is doing exactly that. Quit PP games, went back to GW stuff for lower points, and got his daughter involved. Pretty much exactly that sort of thing.
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Xarlaxas
Junior Strategist
Hoards models more than he plays.
Posts: 192
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Post by Xarlaxas on Apr 20, 2017 23:44:37 GMT
Yup, that's a good demographic to go for I think. You get the nostalgia factor *and* new blood at the same time. I've actually been trading in some of my extra PP stuff (I went faction ADD when I started) and have gotten some small stuff for Shadow War to play with my wife, so it's a similar scenario here. If I end up having a kid I know they'd get the 40k colouring book for sure!
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Apr 20, 2017 23:49:59 GMT
A Company that wants customers?? No way!!! Well.. I went and bought Orruk Megaboss. Let's see if it's fun to paint, then I guess I'll buy him some friends and possibly throw some dice at them at some point. Last time I played any Warhammer was in 2008. But yeah this is a sick kit, superb product..all I can say.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Apr 22, 2017 17:40:39 GMT
I've not done any market research (and they possibly haven't either) but the GW veterans from 2nd ed etc. are likely to be at the age that they have kids etc. so, bringing back an old guard player could mean getting their kids hooked too, so it's extra value. . . . I actually know someone who is doing exactly that. Quit PP games, went back to GW stuff for lower points, and got his daughter involved. Pretty much exactly that sort of thing. I'm doing pretty much the same, being in exactly the boat you describe (picked up GW / wargaming in 2nd ed, my son is 3 weeks away from being 10 years old). I've sold off everything PP other than my mercs, and that's on the genuine hope that they stop making business decisions i can't stand and i really like how they are painted. Six months ago I had 8 PP armies, 6 of which were complete collections. I now have Mercs. I was going to keep it to just Shadow War, but this morning they announced 8th ed, so i'll probably see if i like the rules, and if so, give that a go. Also a day or so ago, a Fallout Table Top miniatures game which is designed by ex-PP'er and all around great guy Kevin Clark was announced, so there's that too.
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