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Post by maximumhippo on Mar 18, 2017 7:42:43 GMT
Has anyone really considered running Abby2 with guns? I have considered it basically because my Lylyth lists cant handle colossals/gargs. I've got two lists that I've got planned out, One that I built a while ago and then another in the new Oracles theme. Haven't had time to test either but i'd like to get some feedback.
Legion Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Oracles of Annihilation
!!! You are using a pre-release theme.
(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Proteus [19]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
Blackfrost Shard [9]
The Forsaken [0]
The Forsaken [0]
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (min) [9]
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0]
And List 2
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Proteus [19]
- Naga Nightlurker [8]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
- Azrael [21]
- Seraph [14]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
Spell Martyr [1]
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Post by yourmumrang on Mar 18, 2017 8:39:12 GMT
I have run Abby Ravagore Spam a good few times and i like how it shoots and also can melee on that one turn. I have decided to go all out however any my list looks like...
Abby2
Ravagore x5
Naga
Forsaken x2
Sorceress on Hellion x2
I like the sprays of the Sorceresses but you'll probably want 2 free Shepherds...
...I also aim to drop it into infantry spam in team tournaments
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685 
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Post by Lanz on Mar 18, 2017 23:38:10 GMT
I've considered it, but never actually tried it. I went with a blightbringer and ravagores though. In theory it would be very powerful but I need to see how it pans out.
edit: Now that Oracles is a thing, and free solos are a thing too, I'd probably go with this.
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Oracles of Annihilation
!!! You are using a pre-release theme.
(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Blightbringer [38]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
The Forsaken [0]
The Forsaken [0]
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) [15]
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0]
Spell Martyr [1]
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Mar 19, 2017 4:34:14 GMT
I've tried her out with Ravagores but I found it made me too dependant on consistently triggering Alpha Hunter and the damage output was just not quite high enough to deal wtih the armour skews I wanted to play her into.
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Post by maximumhippo on Mar 19, 2017 11:18:48 GMT
I don't think this style of list would be particularly good at armor cracking, but it handles dudespam at range and it can still mix it up in melee if needed. I feel like into a single colossal list it might be okay and i pair it with Fyanna into the potential double colossal brick. I'm Thinking I might try out Lanz's Oracles List at the LGS today. I'll try to remember to bat rep it.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 19, 2017 15:17:47 GMT
I've tried her out with Ravagores but I found it made me too dependant on consistently triggering Alpha Hunter and the damage output was just not quite high enough to deal wtih the armour skews I wanted to play her into. I don't think this style of list would be particularly good at armor cracking, but it handles dudespam at range and it can still mix it up in melee if needed. I feel like into a single colossal list it might be okay and i pair it with Fyanna into the potential double colossal brick. I'm Thinking I might try out Lanz's Oracles List at the LGS today. I'll try to remember to bat rep it. I'm not so sure... Testing is required, but here are some of my preliminary thoughts on why I wanted to run abby2 gunline in the first place... First off, Abby2 is very feat-dependent. She has a neat spell list, but none of it really bloats the power of her army in any meaningful way. The bulk of her power rests on a good feat turn. In mk2, she was a brute-force alpha strike caster and did very well because of that, but in Mk3? The carnivean chassis lost a point of speed, and those were some of her main beasts. Even with Alpha Hunter, a SPD 5 with reach and a +2 threat range modifier is actually not that uncommon at all. Lots of factions can throw out effective SPD5 with reach, or SPD 6 without reach heavies, and then any +2" threat extender - crusader's call, mobility, boundless charge, apparition, Fleet, Telekinesis, etc - bring their threat range to par with Many of Abby2's beasts even AFTER alpha hunter. In my experience, this ruins Abby2's feat. You need to have some way to pressure or control your opponent so you can manipulate them into a good placement to maximize the feat turn. If they can match (or in some cases even exceed) your feat threat range, they can easily deny you an easily-arranged feat turn because they're going to be dancing just outside of your threat range anyways. SPD 5 reach just isn't much to write home about. So because of this, you need either even more alpha strike (slipstream), or you need ranged pressure that forces your opponent forwards (guns). Now, Abby2 isn't a bad gunline caster. She has some neat dynamics going on. She actually has a lot to work with against enemy gunlines in a gunline-vs-gunline matchup because of Return Fire and psycho-surgery. Not only do you get potential out-of-turn shots, but ravagores and blightbringers will be dropping persistent AoE effects out of turn with those shots. And Psycho-surgery is good for ranged attrition because you're rarely just getting one-rounded at range, and abby2 can generate a lot of health box recovery every turn. You can even potentially control your opponent's target priority using Fortify on your most-damaged or most-important beast to encourage shots being spread elsewhere. Most of all, however, is the fact that our 'big cannon' heavy, the Ravagore, becomes a SPD 7 MAT 7 PS18 with reach, flight, and 7 attacks on the charge after the feat and alpha hunter. That absolutely cracks armor. That arguably cracks a LOT of armor. So if you're using the guns and gunline attrition to wipe out infantry and force your opponent to give you a good feat turn, you can then sweep in with the feat and potentially still tear their armor apart, even without taking any dedicated armor-cracking models. In my case, since I'm including the blightbringer, it's also worth mentioning that Abby2 on her own feat and Dragon's Breath is another PS18 model on the feat turn to wreck a heavy with, and she'll be able to reposition back afterwards too. |
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 20, 2017 1:48:13 GMT
Personally, if not running her in theme I feel like Abby2 should be running Typhon. SPD6 base gives him a great native threat, he lacks pathfinder and reach so he takes the feat incredibly well, and at arm20 he can be a very effective brick in the list if need be. In a blightbringer-less list, I think him +2 ravagores and a bolt thrower could work quite well.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Mar 20, 2017 2:37:53 GMT
2" threat extension? With the Seraph we have 4" threat extension available and 8" threat extension with Proteus.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 20, 2017 3:32:41 GMT
2" threat extension? With the Seraph we have 4" threat extension available and 8" threat extension with Proteus. I mentioned slipstream. My point is that in mk2 abby2 could alpha on just her own rules, in mk3 that's not enough. You need a seraph on top of that or you need some other way to apply pressure. |
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Post by yourmumrang on Mar 20, 2017 8:22:56 GMT
Against true arm skew? No. This list doesn't take it out well enough. But against anything less it's able to hit hard enough. Weirdly i would still pair this with an arm cracker with a bit of versatility like Thags1.
The ranged skirmish game is one you will always win except for the odd feat turn. Return fire on a Ravagore gun is great. I tend to have RF in each of my 5. It ain't pretty.
Also i have used the feat once to simply send one Ravagore into a heavy, slammed said heavy over enemy caster and gunned it down...
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 20, 2017 9:50:09 GMT
This is a very interesting discussion. Has anyone tried Abby2 Ravagore spam into Winter Guard Kommand? It seems amazing to have a Ravagore with Bracer and Return Fire on it shoot back the first time it takes damage from a rocket or something. Despite RAT5 you only need a 7 to hit a Winter Guard Rocketeer and with POW8 blast damage you need to roll 6's to kill any other models hit by the AOE. Naga lets you shoot despite Windwall also. Verrrry interesting...
The list I came up with is:
Abby2 - Oracles of Annihilation
- Succubus (free)
- Blightbringer
- 3x Ravagore
- Naga Nightlurker
Sorceress & Hellion (free)
2x Forsaken (free)
Exactly 75 points of beasts after taking WBP into account. The list feels pretty tight. The only thing I miss is a Seraph for Slipstream which is always a clutch animus but with this many guns it's probably not needed.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 20, 2017 9:55:17 GMT
Against true arm skew? No. This list doesn't take it out well enough. But against anything less it's able to hit hard enough. Weirdly i would still pair this with an arm cracker with a bit of versatility like Thags1. The ranged skirmish game is one you will always win except for the odd feat turn. Return fire on a Ravagore gun is great. I tend to have RF in each of my 5. It ain't pretty. Also i have used the feat once to simply send one Ravagore into a heavy, slammed said heavy over enemy caster and gunned it down... Define 'true armor skew', then. While I can't claim to have played an abby2 gunline into it specifically, I have played lists with similar and worse damage output into even the pre-nerf karchev jackspam, and I don't feel PS18 with 7 attacks on the charge is insufficient for that. If it's a matter of something like a single over-buffed colossal, then a good option might be to run Oracles and take the BFS. |
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Post by yourmumrang on Mar 20, 2017 10:47:46 GMT
I'm referring to what you said and others. Over-buffed collossals, massive armour feats etc...
So I'm referring to the real top end of silliness that it can't handle. I love my list in OOA and don't feel the need for a BFS...
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Post by maximumhippo on Mar 21, 2017 9:22:27 GMT
I'll get real batreps up when I have more time but I played Lanz's List with BB and Double Ravagore twice this past Sunday. Into Trolls (Ragnor double Garg) and Khador (Sorscha1 Ocean's). Short version, I made some play errors against the Ragnor List, Probably should have traded the Ravagores instead of the BB on his feat turn. ended up losing but I did take MK off the table with a single ravagore under Abby's feat. Against Khador, I won because of the hex hunters getting onto Sorscha and Shadowbinding her. My opponent took a free strike he didn't need tofrom one of them, the next turn BB template went down, Bayal made some attacks and a Ravagore shot finished her off.
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Post by maximumhippo on Mar 22, 2017 7:06:26 GMT
So two games played with an Abby2 gunline this past Sunday. Played into Ragnor and Sorscha1. This is the game v Ragnor.
My list:
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Oracles of Annihilation
(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Blightbringer [38]
- Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11]
- Ravagore [19]
- Ravagore [19]
Spell Martyr [1]
The Forsaken [0]
The Forsaken [0]
Blighted Nyss Hex Hunters (max) [15]
- Bayal, Hound of Everblight [0]
His List:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Power of Dhunia
(Ragnor 1) Ragnor Skysplitter, The Runemaster [+30]
- Mountain King [36]
- Sea King [42]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0]
Janissa Stonetide [0]
Stone Scribe Chronicler [0]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
Trollkin Runeshapers [9]
Trollkin Runeshapers [9]
We play on incursion. There is a forest, an acid pool and a wall on my right side sort of near to the flag, there are two hills centrally located and a house in front of the flag on the left.
Deployment:
Trolls:He wins the roll and chooses to go first. I choose the side with easier access to the left hand flag. He deploys Ragnor in the center, MK to the left (my left, just assume it’s all from my perspective.) and a unit of runeshapers to the left of that, It’s mirrored with the Sea King and the other unit of shapers. Stone and Chronicler fill in behind. Janissa ends up right behind Ragnor.
Legion: I deploy Blighty in the center, Ravagores flanking each side and Abby on the right. Bracer gets put on the right hand ravagore. One forsaken on each side and the Spell martyr goes up on the left side to eventually harass the flag. Bolt thrower goes up to the right again to pressure the flag. Hex hunters are in a line right at the AD line.
Turn 1:
Trolls: Beasts run up, the stone gets fury and puts up aura. Nothing super crazy. Pulverizer goes on MK, and Ragnor ends on Janissa’s hill and also dug in.
Legion: Hex hunters apparition forward (wish I had remembered this on every other turn). Blighty runs as far as he can and riles to full. The boltthrower runs up towards the flag so he can get on it ASAP. And is followed by a forsaken. The second forsaken cleans up Blighty. Both ravagores advance and shoot at their respective shaper units. One scatters onto the shapers and doesn’t do any damage, the other scatters to irrelevance. Abby puts return fire on all three of the Heavies and repositions to hang out with the Bracer-ed ravagore. The Hex hunters run up in two ranks, 4 jam up the gargs the other six+Bayal hang back on a hill.
Turn 2:
Trolls: Runeshapers on the left go first to try and clear out some of the hex hunters from the MK, they get two I think and are contesting the flag. Right unit of shapers walks up to clear off more gets another one but the gargs are free to move, one shaper is in range to contest the flag. MK assaults my left ravagore does 4-5 points of damage and the ravagore does 2-3 back with return fire. The Sea king moves up and spits onto the hex hunters, it misses because the concealment aura from the Blightbringer. It scatters forwards, catching 3-4 Hex hunters, the bounce connects with Blighty but fails to crack armor. Ragnor upkept Pulverizer on the MK, he walks up and Feats.
Legion: Upkeep Bracer, clean up fury, corrosion from the SK spit goes out. I’m staring down these huge bases and I’m not really sure what to do. I figure that my best bet is to hold my feat and send in Blighty to do as much as possible. I lead with the Hex hunters, Bayal and the two that are left apply shadowbind to the Gargs (not entirely sure if they’re immune or not, we couldn’t find it) and a runeshaper. I send in Blighty, and manage to do very little work on the MK. I think between the three initals and four bought attacks, I did like 15 damage. Bolthrower walks up to the flag, thunderbolts the Runeshaper away and so I can begin to score. Forsaken advance, the right side one cleans up the boltthrower. The ravagores both move up a bit staying clear as possible they shoot into the rune shapers to try and prevent them from contesting further. Martyr moves up to contest the left flag. Abby puts out return fire again and camps a 3 on a hill. End the turn going 1-0.
Turn 3:
Trolls: Pulverizer stays on the MK shakes Shadowbind on both gargs. He’s got hex hunters and in slightly awkward places that he can’t just bulldoze out of the way. So the right side runeshapers activate to clear them off, he ends up killing the shadowbound one to free up the SK. MK activates, and just tears through the Blightbringer. Totally fills up, but it was like dice+5 or something on every shot. Kill shots onto my ravagore who takes another 5 or so, and returns fire for another 3-4. The left runeshapers now activate, move into the flag and kill the spell martyr. Ragnor puts rage on the SK who then activates and kills both the Bracer-ed Ravagore and the Boltthrower. The forsaken manages to dodge the flailing anchor. Stone does stone things and Janissa just hangs out enjoying her shadowbind. Score goes to 1-1
Legion: Abby goes first, Pops Feat and does not do much else. She was too far away from any infantry to hex bolt or charge, and I wasn’t going to have her attack the gargs. Both forsaken advance and pop their blight bombs, One manages to catch both gargs and does about 12 damage to each the other can only get to the SK, and whiffs the damage roll. The lone remaining ravagore activates and manages to kill the MK, but is maxed out so I can’t transfer if needed. Turn ends 1-2.
Turn 4:
Trolls: Pulverizer and rage go on the Sea King, Abby gets squished. That was pretty much it.
So, lessons learned, Don’t even think about melee on Ragnor feat turn. I don’t think this list is a good drop into Double Colossal/Gargantuan. I would have been much better off with a traditional Lylyth gunline with Raptors and such. Many other things could have gone wrong and I think my biggest mistake was committing the Blightbringer too soon. I think if I had tried to slow the Gargs down with the ravagores first, I would have been able to use the Blightbringer with feat to maybe do more damage.
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