The View From Under the Bridge
Sept 7, 2017 0:52:23 GMT
Sarcastastic, Big Fat Troll, and 1 more like this
Post by trollsareblue on Sept 7, 2017 0:52:23 GMT
Recently I had someone challenge me to defend my statement that Trolls are bad. The following is the result. It's long, and if you don't read it all, I don't blame you. But I was asked...
It has been my assertion since the launch of MK3 that Trolls are a weak faction with a number of problems. Some people agree with me, some do not. Those that don’t agree tend to claim that the faction requires more work for wins, and that’s just fine. Who wants an easy-mode faction! Others have postulated that Trolls are just fine as is, and if you can’t win, you just suck. Being a writer by trade who has written rules for various RPGs, and a longtime Trolls player, I am generally annoyed by curt dismissals of actual problematic design choices.
Let me include here, for the perennially obtuse, the note that my conclusions don’t mean Trolls are unplayable. No faction is unplayable. Nor am I claiming Trolls can’t win games. Every faction can win games. The disparity between factions is actually fairly low. That disparity does exist, however, and in a game based partially on randomness, advantages and disadvantages are magnified. It is much more difficult for a competent Troll player to win competitive games than it is for a player who has chosen nearly any other faction.
I feel the main problems with Trolls can be broken down into two general areas: faction-specific problems, and Hordes-specific problems. Let’s start with the latter.
Some of the problems found in Trolls are shared by other Hordes factions. Hordes is the younger of the two systems and, naturally, hasn’t had as much time to develop. Less development means fewer options. This is most easily demonstrated by the number of caster attachments available for Hordes compared to those available for Warmachine. Even the youngest full Warmachine faction, Retribution, has the option of three different choices for caster attachments. Cygnar has four different options. Hordes factions have one option.
Fury is another problem shared by all Hordes factions. It is my belief that PP massively overvalued Fury in the transition to MK3. Beasts are universally more expensive, and have lower MAT/RAT than warjacks. With the removal of morale in MK3, the Fury system is also one of the few remaining swing stats in the game. Leaving even a single point of Fury on a beast opens the chance that its owner will lose control of it the following turn. That loss of control becomes even more problematic when the cost of the beast is taken into account. If a Hordes player is already at a 2-to-1 disadvantage in beasts v. jacks, loss of control over a beast for a single turn can be crippling.
The counter-argument of Fury being “high-risk, high-reward” is only partially correct. Common wisdom holds that the ability to run every beast hot for a turn is worth the risk of frenzies. That idea doesn’t take into account the lower stats of beasts. If a beast must boost to hit, and a Hordes player has fielded a large battlegroup (remember, PP pushed the idea of jacks and beasts as the poster boys of MK3), it is inevitable that one or more beasts will end up with more Fury than is manageable, regardless of whether this is an all-in turn or not. With the low Fury stat of many warlocks, even maneuvering beasts can be a challenge for Fury management.
You can’t discuss Fury without looking at animi. This was another change from MK2 that has made beasts less valuable than they were previously. Hordes armies are at least partially built on the idea that the beasts provide value by just being on the table. Beasts provide transfer targets, generate Fury, and offer additional options in the form of animi. Limiting the vast majority of animi to “self-only” has seriously reduced the number of options available to warlocks, without offering any sort of meaningful replacement. Moving animi to “self-only” had the additional effect of making other, non-beast models less valuable. Throwing a damage buff or Lightning Strike on a solo used to be a viable tactic. That option has largely vanished (along with the use of many combat solos) with the change to animi.
Moving past the inherent weaknesses of Hordes shared by all factions, Trolls have their own set of issues. To me, the foremost among those problems is the preponderance of subpar infantry. POD is the dominant theme in Trolls for a reason. Troll infantry units aren’t particularly fast, durable, or hard hitting. In other factions, those weaknesses are often covered by a cheaper unit price tag. This is not the case for Trolls.
In theory, Fennblades should be fantastic. They are fast for Trolls, have a reasonable P+S, 2” melee reach, and a solid mini-feat. In reality, Fennblades are rarely seen in competitive lists outside of Madrak2. Part of the reason for this was the shift to more heavies in MK3. P+S 12 is great until you have to deal with multiple ARM 20+ heavies, then, not so much. Cost is another factor. 20 points for a full unit + CA is more than the value provided.
Fennblades are fast, but not fast enough to provide effective jamming without AD. Cleave is great for infantry clearing, until you realize MAT 6 is going to struggle hitting most enemy units, unless you tack on another five points to pay for a Fell Caller. Fennblades are easy to hit, and easy to kill, unless you tack on yet more points for a Chronicler to protect them, or risk running the Stone further up field than is probably a good idea. In short, Fennblades provide a picture of why Troll infantry is bad. They are expensive, fragile, and ill-equipped to fulfill their intended role. Overcoming those shortcomings with support increases costs without necessarily offering benefits to the rest of the army.
Speaking of support, I’m sure no one will be shocked if I mention support bloat. An average Troll list will contain a minimum of 26 points worth of models that exist simply to make Trolls function. Themes seem to offset that total, until you notice other factions are using their freebies to buy solos that can actively contribute to the game, rather than ones that hang around in the backfield. Compare the free Crabbits and Gremlin Swarms offered by Dark Menagerie to Troll options for POD, and you begin to see the problem.
For all the attention it receives, I don’t even think the Stone is the worst offender, particularly with the forthcoming CID changes. No, I think Rage is the biggest problem. By itself, Rage is a great animus. What’s not to like about +3 STR? The problem lies in the faction’s reliance on it to get work done, the platform, and its delivery options. If your list relies on beasts as heavy hitters (hint: it probably does), then you’re stuck with buying the Mauler or the MK.
Again, by itself the Mauler is a reasonable beast. It’s reasonably priced for a warbeast, and will usually crush whatever it reaches. Sadly, unless you are willing to run multiple Maulers, it will probably be the last beast to head into the scrum. Why risk that vital source of Rage unless you must? Troll’s reliance on Rage transforms a perfectly respectable beast into a support piece/transfer target. Given the faction’s pitiful selection of arc nodes (CID Mulg), applying Rage isn’t always simple, either. Mauler can’t get to within 6” of that beast you want to buff? Better hope your caster doesn’t overextend to apply Rage.
The last point I want to touch on (but by no means the only other problem with the faction) is Troll’s lack of non-linear threats. But polar bears! I hear you say. Yes, they’ll help, but only if you’re running SoTN. I doubt PP will be adding them to any other theme. Currently, the only non-linear threat available to Trolls comes from Doomy1 and Goad. In every other list, your opponent knows exactly how far to stay away from your beasts, and only really has to worry about his caster receiving a barrel to the face when considering ranged threats. Trolls are predictable, which makes counter-play fairly simple. At most, they’ll have to evaluate whether an Overtake move has the potential to cause them trouble.
This is what I expect for the future of Trolls. SoTN and POD will become the go-to list pairing. Even if BoH is changed, I don’t see it as competitive. Players that run the list pairing will have average results in tournaments, with the occasional win. The number of Troll lists spotted at tournaments will increase to be about on par with other Hordes factions, but will never eclipse the number of people playing a full Warmachine faction (with the possible exception of PoM). Trolls spent most of MK2 as a middle of the pack faction, and will return to that position in MK3.
Despite the faction’s problems, Trolls will continue to have a loyal following, partially as a result of sunk-cost, and partially because people enjoy the Troll aesthetic. I fall into the latter camp. I own one of nearly everything Troll, and the majority of what I own is painted. The faction will eke out enough big name wins for people to proclaim the faction is fine, and that any losses are down to poor play or poor players. I think that is a little sad. The faction could be, and has been, better. I urge every Troll player to participate in every CID that is even remotely related to improving Trolls. Give feedback, playtest, submit battle reports. Make it clear that Troll players want more from the faction, and we just might get it.
It has been my assertion since the launch of MK3 that Trolls are a weak faction with a number of problems. Some people agree with me, some do not. Those that don’t agree tend to claim that the faction requires more work for wins, and that’s just fine. Who wants an easy-mode faction! Others have postulated that Trolls are just fine as is, and if you can’t win, you just suck. Being a writer by trade who has written rules for various RPGs, and a longtime Trolls player, I am generally annoyed by curt dismissals of actual problematic design choices.
Let me include here, for the perennially obtuse, the note that my conclusions don’t mean Trolls are unplayable. No faction is unplayable. Nor am I claiming Trolls can’t win games. Every faction can win games. The disparity between factions is actually fairly low. That disparity does exist, however, and in a game based partially on randomness, advantages and disadvantages are magnified. It is much more difficult for a competent Troll player to win competitive games than it is for a player who has chosen nearly any other faction.
I feel the main problems with Trolls can be broken down into two general areas: faction-specific problems, and Hordes-specific problems. Let’s start with the latter.
Some of the problems found in Trolls are shared by other Hordes factions. Hordes is the younger of the two systems and, naturally, hasn’t had as much time to develop. Less development means fewer options. This is most easily demonstrated by the number of caster attachments available for Hordes compared to those available for Warmachine. Even the youngest full Warmachine faction, Retribution, has the option of three different choices for caster attachments. Cygnar has four different options. Hordes factions have one option.
Fury is another problem shared by all Hordes factions. It is my belief that PP massively overvalued Fury in the transition to MK3. Beasts are universally more expensive, and have lower MAT/RAT than warjacks. With the removal of morale in MK3, the Fury system is also one of the few remaining swing stats in the game. Leaving even a single point of Fury on a beast opens the chance that its owner will lose control of it the following turn. That loss of control becomes even more problematic when the cost of the beast is taken into account. If a Hordes player is already at a 2-to-1 disadvantage in beasts v. jacks, loss of control over a beast for a single turn can be crippling.
The counter-argument of Fury being “high-risk, high-reward” is only partially correct. Common wisdom holds that the ability to run every beast hot for a turn is worth the risk of frenzies. That idea doesn’t take into account the lower stats of beasts. If a beast must boost to hit, and a Hordes player has fielded a large battlegroup (remember, PP pushed the idea of jacks and beasts as the poster boys of MK3), it is inevitable that one or more beasts will end up with more Fury than is manageable, regardless of whether this is an all-in turn or not. With the low Fury stat of many warlocks, even maneuvering beasts can be a challenge for Fury management.
You can’t discuss Fury without looking at animi. This was another change from MK2 that has made beasts less valuable than they were previously. Hordes armies are at least partially built on the idea that the beasts provide value by just being on the table. Beasts provide transfer targets, generate Fury, and offer additional options in the form of animi. Limiting the vast majority of animi to “self-only” has seriously reduced the number of options available to warlocks, without offering any sort of meaningful replacement. Moving animi to “self-only” had the additional effect of making other, non-beast models less valuable. Throwing a damage buff or Lightning Strike on a solo used to be a viable tactic. That option has largely vanished (along with the use of many combat solos) with the change to animi.
Moving past the inherent weaknesses of Hordes shared by all factions, Trolls have their own set of issues. To me, the foremost among those problems is the preponderance of subpar infantry. POD is the dominant theme in Trolls for a reason. Troll infantry units aren’t particularly fast, durable, or hard hitting. In other factions, those weaknesses are often covered by a cheaper unit price tag. This is not the case for Trolls.
In theory, Fennblades should be fantastic. They are fast for Trolls, have a reasonable P+S, 2” melee reach, and a solid mini-feat. In reality, Fennblades are rarely seen in competitive lists outside of Madrak2. Part of the reason for this was the shift to more heavies in MK3. P+S 12 is great until you have to deal with multiple ARM 20+ heavies, then, not so much. Cost is another factor. 20 points for a full unit + CA is more than the value provided.
Fennblades are fast, but not fast enough to provide effective jamming without AD. Cleave is great for infantry clearing, until you realize MAT 6 is going to struggle hitting most enemy units, unless you tack on another five points to pay for a Fell Caller. Fennblades are easy to hit, and easy to kill, unless you tack on yet more points for a Chronicler to protect them, or risk running the Stone further up field than is probably a good idea. In short, Fennblades provide a picture of why Troll infantry is bad. They are expensive, fragile, and ill-equipped to fulfill their intended role. Overcoming those shortcomings with support increases costs without necessarily offering benefits to the rest of the army.
Speaking of support, I’m sure no one will be shocked if I mention support bloat. An average Troll list will contain a minimum of 26 points worth of models that exist simply to make Trolls function. Themes seem to offset that total, until you notice other factions are using their freebies to buy solos that can actively contribute to the game, rather than ones that hang around in the backfield. Compare the free Crabbits and Gremlin Swarms offered by Dark Menagerie to Troll options for POD, and you begin to see the problem.
For all the attention it receives, I don’t even think the Stone is the worst offender, particularly with the forthcoming CID changes. No, I think Rage is the biggest problem. By itself, Rage is a great animus. What’s not to like about +3 STR? The problem lies in the faction’s reliance on it to get work done, the platform, and its delivery options. If your list relies on beasts as heavy hitters (hint: it probably does), then you’re stuck with buying the Mauler or the MK.
Again, by itself the Mauler is a reasonable beast. It’s reasonably priced for a warbeast, and will usually crush whatever it reaches. Sadly, unless you are willing to run multiple Maulers, it will probably be the last beast to head into the scrum. Why risk that vital source of Rage unless you must? Troll’s reliance on Rage transforms a perfectly respectable beast into a support piece/transfer target. Given the faction’s pitiful selection of arc nodes (CID Mulg), applying Rage isn’t always simple, either. Mauler can’t get to within 6” of that beast you want to buff? Better hope your caster doesn’t overextend to apply Rage.
The last point I want to touch on (but by no means the only other problem with the faction) is Troll’s lack of non-linear threats. But polar bears! I hear you say. Yes, they’ll help, but only if you’re running SoTN. I doubt PP will be adding them to any other theme. Currently, the only non-linear threat available to Trolls comes from Doomy1 and Goad. In every other list, your opponent knows exactly how far to stay away from your beasts, and only really has to worry about his caster receiving a barrel to the face when considering ranged threats. Trolls are predictable, which makes counter-play fairly simple. At most, they’ll have to evaluate whether an Overtake move has the potential to cause them trouble.
This is what I expect for the future of Trolls. SoTN and POD will become the go-to list pairing. Even if BoH is changed, I don’t see it as competitive. Players that run the list pairing will have average results in tournaments, with the occasional win. The number of Troll lists spotted at tournaments will increase to be about on par with other Hordes factions, but will never eclipse the number of people playing a full Warmachine faction (with the possible exception of PoM). Trolls spent most of MK2 as a middle of the pack faction, and will return to that position in MK3.
Despite the faction’s problems, Trolls will continue to have a loyal following, partially as a result of sunk-cost, and partially because people enjoy the Troll aesthetic. I fall into the latter camp. I own one of nearly everything Troll, and the majority of what I own is painted. The faction will eke out enough big name wins for people to proclaim the faction is fine, and that any losses are down to poor play or poor players. I think that is a little sad. The faction could be, and has been, better. I urge every Troll player to participate in every CID that is even remotely related to improving Trolls. Give feedback, playtest, submit battle reports. Make it clear that Troll players want more from the faction, and we just might get it.
