|
Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 8, 2017 1:42:12 GMT
As Rowdy says this has been a problem for most MOW shooting; RAT 5 is just a little to low to hit reliably. They can hit normal heavies and some infantry at DEF 12 but much more than that you have sharp diminishing returns. At POW 14 and only 6 shots you don't want to CRA to much either. Maybe somthing along the lines of Powerful Shot when they aim?
|
|
|
Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 8, 2017 1:51:38 GMT
As Rowdy says this has been a problem for most MOW shooting; RAT 5 is just a little to low to hit reliably. Which isn't that much of a problem for the cheaper end of shooty infantry. But the problem is that these guys are on the VERY expensive end, with as I mentioned: VERY few shots.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 2:03:32 GMT
Dont forget arcing fire..they can aim, because there's a meat wall of shocktroopers in front of them. Is anyone really wandering their bombardiers out alone without at least something inbetween them and the front lines?
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Sept 8, 2017 5:27:11 GMT
As Rowdy says this has been a problem for most MOW shooting; RAT 5 is just a little to low to hit reliably. They can hit normal heavies and some infantry at DEF 12 but much more than that you have sharp diminishing returns. At POW 14 and only 6 shots you don't want to CRA to much either. Maybe somthing along the lines of Powerful Shot when they aim? Buffing their shooting too much (especially accuracy) raises a difficult issue. Arcing fire, especially in combination with CRA, gives the Bombardiers a more potent than usual ranged assassination threat. At present, the only arcing fire models with a RAT great than 5 are the non-character Grenadier and Renegade, and Dozer and Smigg as a character. There are plenty of RAT 4/5 arcing fire models which can boost of course, but those are limited to a single shot. If it becomes too easy for Bombardiers to hit higher levels of DEF, their ranged assassination potential might be seen as too great. CRA addresses the tension here quite well - increase accuracy and POW, but lower volume of fire. Powerful shot would enable individual Bombardiers to be a threat to DEF 15/16 warcasters/locks (i.e. most of them) and with the volume of fire to burn through focus/fury used for protection. Because of arcing fire, that risks creating more or less entire areas of the table where a caster cannot go in anything like reasonable safety. But each of those shots is an AoE and with sufficient POW to threaten many infantry with the blast damage. POW7+2D6 is decent into lots of warrior models, so even a scattering shot is not terrible.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 5:51:44 GMT
Buffing their shooting too much (especially accuracy) raises a difficult issue. Arcing fire, especially in combination with CRA, gives the Bombardiers a more potent than usual ranged assassination threat. At present, the only arcing fire models with a RAT great than 5 are the non-character Grenadier and Renegade, and Dozer and Smigg as a character. There are plenty of RAT 4/5 arcing fire models which can boost of course, but those are limited to a single shot. If it becomes too easy for Bombardiers to hit higher levels of DEF, their ranged assassination potential might be seen as too great. CRA addresses the tension here quite well - increase accuracy and POW, but lower volume of fire. Powerful shot would enable individual Bombardiers to be a threat to DEF 15/16 warcasters/locks (i.e. most of them) and with the volume of fire to burn through focus/fury used for protection. Because of arcing fire, that risks creating more or less entire areas of the table where a caster cannot go in anything like reasonable safety. But each of those shots is an AoE and with sufficient POW to threaten many infantry with the blast damage. POW7+2D6 is decent into lots of warrior models, so even a scattering shot is not terrible. I'm already worried that FFE irusk 2 CRA's in theme is going to get the unit nerfed due to pow 20 assassinations.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Sept 8, 2017 8:59:22 GMT
I'm already worried that FFE irusk 2 CRA's in theme is going to get the unit nerfed due to pow 20 assassinations. I'm not too worried about that - FFE is a great spell on them. But it's also great on the Gun Carriage and Mortar, and good on any CRA unit, especially with Irusk2's tactician ability giving some of the effect of arcing fire too by ignoring intervening friendlies. Both Caine1 and Ossrum have FFE too, and both have access to very powerful shooting (a FFE Horgenhold Artillery Corps is also rather powerful, thanks to the Brutal Damage rule). I think (hope?) PP think that such a buff to shooting is rather the point of FFE. Importantly, the limitation on one shot a turn with FFE will limit it's capacity to achieve ridiculous things (as does its status as a single model upkeep - kill the right member of the unit and it needs to be recast). On an undamaged caster, a single focus will probably keep the caster alive, even from a FFE 6 man CRA, barring dice spikes.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 9:03:04 GMT
Its the arcing fire coupled with the CRA. Throw some trash in front of a rifle corps and FFE on their CRA doesn't matter. Throw some trash in front of bombardiers and you'd still best have enough trash 1 inch away from the caster to block LOS. With a mortar or victor you're firing at RAT1, the FFE manages 11-13 more often than not. FFE on a unit of CRAing bombardiers is hitting DEF 19-22.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Sept 8, 2017 11:23:32 GMT
Its the arcing fire coupled with the CRA. Throw some trash in front of a rifle corps and FFE on their CRA doesn't matter. Throw some trash in front of bombardiers and you'd still best have enough trash 1 inch away from the caster to block LOS. With a mortar or victor you're firing at RAT1, the FFE manages 11-13 more often than not. FFE on a unit of CRAing bombardiers is hitting DEF 19-22. I get that, I just don't think it will be a major worry. The Horgenhold Artillery with FFE is longer ranged, hitting DEF 15/16 (most casters) on average rolls without aiming and is a POW14+4D6 arcing fire shot. Ossrum can get two of those for free in Hammerstrike and cycle FFE between them without too many problems. I doubt that FFE Bombardiers will be more of a problem than that, as the volume of fire is less. I suppose someone could try an Irusk2 list with 2 max Bombardier units to cycle FFE, but then the rest of the list suffers and there aren't that many points to protect them all. The arcing fire 1" restriction should be fairly easy to use against the Bombardiers too - the MoW theme is going to struggle to have the tools to remove those models without really eating into the points (no widowmakers, for example). An Irusk2 list could have 2 Destroyers and use them to take out specific models within 1" of the caster, then FFE Bombardiers onto the caster, but that's half the list's points for one powerful shot on the assassination or 2/3 for two powerful shots and is fairly obviously telegraphed to an opponent. And that's not even considering the possibility of Shield Guards, stealth and so on. There might be complaints when people are first caught by it (after all, how many people have experience against Bombardiers in Mk3?), but one mega-death ray a turn is not an unfamiliar problem in WM.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Sept 8, 2017 12:15:37 GMT
They have CRA. Its 3 pow 16's at rat7(9 if aiming) or 1 pow 20 at rat 9(11 if aiming) My point still stands exactly. You keep losing shots. Its 2 shots for 16 points and 3 shots for what I assume will be 20-21 points. Im also having a hard time inagining these guys being given the opportunity to aim except for against stuff you wouldn't care about aiming anyway and would want to CRA against. And this also doesn't take into account how this also begins to crap up against Infantry. They mostly suck against nearly ALL infantry sans the thrall kind. Either the defense is too high so your relying on scatters, or the armor is too high for the blasts to be all that great. I stated it before. With the way SR17 goes I have no problem imagining these guys aiming. Just put them on the end of one Zone and everything that enters that zone is in rng for aiming shots. Screening is somewhat difficult as mentioned too. I disagree strongly that they suck against infantry. They wont kill Nyss Hunters in droves, but in wg, i am fine with combining into rockets or just normal shots (especially with help like HoF or Sorscha stationary or the likes). Forces your opponent to spread too. Its the arcing fire coupled with the CRA. Throw some trash in front of a rifle corps and FFE on their CRA doesn't matter. Throw some trash in front of bombardiers and you'd still best have enough trash 1 inch away from the caster to block LOS. With a mortar or victor you're firing at RAT1, the FFE manages 11-13 more often than not. FFE on a unit of CRAing bombardiers is hitting DEF 19-22. I get that, I just don't think it will be a major worry. The Horgenhold Artillery with FFE is longer ranged, hitting DEF 15/16 (most casters) on average rolls without aiming and is a POW14+4D6 arcing fire shot. Ossrum can get two of those for free in Hammerstrike and cycle FFE between them without too many problems. I doubt that FFE Bombardiers will be more of a problem than that, as the volume of fire is less. I suppose someone could try an Irusk2 list with 2 max Bombardier units to cycle FFE, but then the rest of the list suffers and there aren't that many points to protect them all. The arcing fire 1" restriction should be fairly easy to use against the Bombardiers too - the MoW theme is going to struggle to have the tools to remove those models without really eating into the points (no widowmakers, for example). An Irusk2 list could have 2 Destroyers and use them to take out specific models within 1" of the caster, then FFE Bombardiers onto the caster, but that's half the list's points for one powerful shot on the assassination or 2/3 for two powerful shots and is fairly obviously telegraphed to an opponent. And that's not even considering the possibility of Shield Guards, stealth and so on. There might be complaints when people are first caught by it (after all, how many people have experience against Bombardiers in Mk3?), but one mega-death ray a turn is not an unfamiliar problem in WM. That comparison shows exactly the Problem. I am not affraid of things that hit Def 15/16 with Pow 14 4d6, because those shots don't hit reliably. Sure that kills casters on a lucky day, but again not reliably. Boostet RAT 11(12 if the officer has higher Rat) and Pow 20 is a lot more dangerous. A caster without focus just dies, and with 2 shots of that magnitued a Warcaster often even dies with Focus, and that with a threadrng of 18". These guys are really exiting for me and the possibilites are great. I really wanna do the ultimate destruction turn with HOF and Vlad2 feat, but that may be a bit over the top.
|
|
|
Post by leotherat on Sept 8, 2017 12:23:26 GMT
Tactical tip- if you do feat with Vlad2 don't waste your feat targets. Just pick the one guy making the CRA and pick other models for more utility.
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 8, 2017 12:42:15 GMT
I'm not trying to shut down a conversation.
~But~ this all this Theorymachine seems to be heading off into the weeds a little bit. I'm having trouble following what your discussing anymore and who is trying to make what point. You guys can keep up your discussion, but for our viewers at home I'm going to summarize things and ask for further comments.
- I put up what the Bombardier CA would look like based upon the September 5th Insider.
- The assumption that the Bombardier's base unit's RAT would get increased by +1 was nullified.
- The RAT was returned back to where it *should* be.
- Someone expressed concern that Quick Work might not be sufficient, so an alternate suggestion of Dual Attack was floated.
- Dual Attack might be too much of an improvement, so it will sit in "Potential Limbo" for now.
Are there any more burning problems with the CA?
If so, present them in The Queen's English - no need for a Theorymachine doctorate thesis presentation.
|
|
|
Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 9, 2017 16:27:45 GMT
I think the base unit is actually in a fairly good spot now with RNG 12. I still need to play actual games with the Bombardiers as they are now to see how often I can get them into position to aim, and how many I can keep alive till that point. Most of my concerns are on the UA which I find has a strange friction within it's designe.
Clearcut is... strange. PP made this rule because they don't want true pathfinder on the unit, but clear cutting your way through shallow water or rubble is an odd idea. I may just write this off as a situational ability that does not cost us much.
I like Quick Work, but the addition of Gunfighter OR Dual Attack would be a quality of life buff that would fix Quick Work's issue of not being able to shoot while still engaged even if you kill something.
I think the Duel Shot mini feat on the UA will cause problems for the unit lagging behind the army. While its a powerful rule, SPD 4 will want to walk up and shoot most of the time to keep themselves relevant next turn. By requiring you to aim you also can't use Quick Work or Clearcut at the same time which is the major point of unease I have over the UA. If this is the case Gun's Blazing is an existing rule that is a straight upgrade that could be floated, but it still requires testing.
I also have other suggestions which I would love to see, but are probably never going to happen; Counter Blast or Creeping Barrage.
|
|
|
Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 9, 2017 18:05:05 GMT
I think the base unit is actually in a fairly good spot now with RNG 12. I still need to play actual games with the Bombardiers as they are now to see how often I can get them into position to aim, and how many I can keep alive till that point. Most of my concerns are on the UA which I find has a strange friction within it's designe. Clearcut is... strange. PP made this rule because they don't want true pathfinder on the unit, but clear cutting your way through shallow water or rubble is an odd idea. I may just write this off as a situational ability that does not cost us much. I like Quick Work, but the addition of Gunfighter OR Dual Attack would be a quality of life buff that would fix Quick Work's issue of not being able to shoot while still engaged even if you kill something. I agree with everything above except I am fine with the UA. I think that the design of the UA was different and more specific than what we are used to seeing. I also think that PP *really* wants the Bombardiers to stay a fire support unit that just happens to have some melee ability. I was just thinking, and while this would be a bit of a corner-case scenario (and I could be wrong) I could see that if the Bombardiers were to be within 1" melee with an infantry guy at the beginning of their turn they could stand still, make their melee attack, and if they kill him they can make a ranged attack and a 2nd ranged attack if they use the minifeat. Quick Work and Dual Shot are mutually exclusive only if the Bombardier has moved and if they are still in melee after the melee attack. Dual Attack would definitely make the unit more flexible, especially if they were to get stuck in a swarm of small-based infantry.
|
|
|
Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 9, 2017 18:29:40 GMT
Sorry Blarg, but you can't aim while engaged so you can't Dual Shot which requires you to aim; so not even a corner case. A model also cant mix melee and ranged unless they have a rule such as Point Blank/Gunfighter/Dual Attack.
If the intent was to stay super narrow in focus then I could come to live with it. I can still dream about a unit with Counter Blast at least ;P.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Sept 9, 2017 22:50:21 GMT
Tactical tip- if you do feat with Vlad2 don't waste your feat targets. Just pick the one guy making the CRA and pick other models for more utility. Ah I was entering crazy town, for crazy plays. Feating on the Unit while under HoF and charging into something, hopefully critting a few times for additonal pow 16 attacks and then shooting something with rat 8^^. But normally yes, if you just want to hit, just feat on the ones doing CRAs
|
|