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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 7, 2017 14:31:17 GMT
Technically Quick work can be useful when something jams you, so you kill it in melee, then shoot. The ability that specifically forces you to charge to do anything is Assault.
I don't like Quick work, but it'll do. Their shooting is obviously fine at 12" double shot with Clear cut to get into position, might as well add something not very relevant like Quick work.
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Post by leotherat on Sept 7, 2017 14:45:08 GMT
The problem is if you're jammed by a unit with reach then you have to kill off the jammers from the inside out to get maybe 2 shots off. If you don't clear the jammers in the right order then you may only get 1 shot off due to reach stopping the other models from using a ranged attack. You still have activation problems due to the fact that you can't hold your shot until a later time so you have to clear out everyone with your 1 (maybe 2) attacks. They need to have something that allows them to shoot after all of the melee attacks are done so that the shooting can be used after everyone has had a chance to clear.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 7, 2017 14:47:08 GMT
The problem is if you're jammed by a unit with reach then you have to kill off the jammers from the inside out to get maybe 2 shots off. If you don't clear the jammers in the right order then you may only get 1 shot off due to reach stopping the other models from using a ranged attack. You still have activation problems due to the fact that you can't hold your shot until a later time so you have to clear out everyone with your 1 (maybe 2) attacks. They need to have something that allows them to shoot after all of the melee attacks are done so that the shooting can be used after everyone has had a chance to clear. And if you didn't have Quickwork, you would kill one guy then do nothing. I don't get how Quickwork is being seen as a bad thing?!
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Post by leotherat on Sept 7, 2017 15:49:20 GMT
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, per se. It's just that you really can't take full advantage of it with this unit. With a 5(6) man unit you can't afford to miss with any of your attacks and while you may get 1 or 2 "free" shots after melee there are too many variables to make sure that that special rule is worth its cost.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 7, 2017 16:06:53 GMT
So you're worried about the Bombardiers not being able to take advantage of Quick Work if they get swamped by a group of melee troops that have 2" reach?
Realistically the Bombardiers getting swamped by a large number of 1" reach infantry is a concern also, especially since there are a lot more 10-man small based infantry squads out there.
Should we ask PP to have the CA give the Bombardiers Dual Attack instead of Quick Work?
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 7, 2017 16:17:35 GMT
Yes.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 21:23:36 GMT
So you're worried about the Bombardiers not being able to take advantage of Quick Work if they get swamped by a group of melee troops that have 2" reach? Realistically the Bombardiers getting swamped by a large number of 1" reach infantry is a concern also, especially since there are a lot more 10-man small based infantry squads out there. Should we ask PP to have the CA give the Bombardiers Dual Attack instead of Quick Work? The more people lobby to make them more useful in melee the greater the likelihood their point cost goes way up.
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 7, 2017 21:24:24 GMT
Duel Attack would perform much the same effect and still get your shots off. I also tend to agree that Clearcut is going to stay as PP went to all the work of making new rules to specifically avoid Pathfinder. The Fennblade UA give "No Quarter" as a mini feat which may be less offensive then straight up Pathfinder but I am not hopeful.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 21:46:19 GMT
Dual attack doubles their attack output with no conditions. Quick work requires you to drop someone, and requires you to not be engaged. Dual attack doesn't require you to drop them, and can be fired even if engaged.
Lookin at a point increase most likely.
Edited to cut out the department of redundancy department
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Post by leotherat on Sept 7, 2017 22:11:06 GMT
I wish there was a half way point between quick work and dual attack something that allows you to shoot even if you are still engaged after destroying a model in melee. That would be perfect. Call it triumphant shot.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 22:28:59 GMT
I wish there was a half way point between quick work and dual attack something that allows you to shoot even if you are still engaged after destroying a model in melee. That would be perfect. Call it triumphant shot. I honestly think that on the table, the CID as is is going to make them a pretty damn good unit. Literally everything they have ups the amount of shooting they get to do, keeps them focused as a shooting unit that can fight off half assed assaults and keeps them shooting as often as possible. Demo corps need the help.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 23:49:04 GMT
Well again the Bombardiers problem is generally innacute not that hard hitting shooting. At best you're getting 5 shots out of them (Not Adding the mini feat/ Attachment here).
Mathematically, unless they aim, they will be always missing even an Ironclad 2/5 times. Means that your 16 point unit gives you 3 unboosted shots.
Range 12 is a good start, but at the moment they just don't have a niche sans taking down Mechanithralls.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 23:51:09 GMT
They have CRA. Its 3 pow 16's at rat7(9 if aiming) or 1 pow 20 at rat 9(11 if aiming)
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 8, 2017 0:18:01 GMT
So I took a look at every ranged unit in the game (briefly) and looked for abilities I liked, here is my list (mostly from mercenaries funnily enough):
-Counter Blast (Skarath) -Covering Fire (or maybe creeping barrage?) (many things) -Double Time(order) (High shields) -Guns Blazing(mini-feat) (High shields)
Any of these appeal to people? Guns Blazing is a straight upgrade to Duel Shot; Counter Blast on a unit would be unique and add to their volume of attacks; and covering fire/creeping barrage would give them some board control.
See anything else strange and outlandish you like?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 8, 2017 1:31:50 GMT
They have CRA. Its 3 pow 16's at rat7(9 if aiming) or 1 pow 20 at rat 9(11 if aiming) My point still stands exactly. You keep losing shots. Its 2 shots for 16 points and 3 shots for what I assume will be 20-21 points. Im also having a hard time inagining these guys being given the opportunity to aim except for against stuff you wouldn't care about aiming anyway and would want to CRA against. And this also doesn't take into account how this also begins to crap up against Infantry. They mostly suck against nearly ALL infantry sans the thrall kind. Either the defense is too high so your relying on scatters, or the armor is too high for the blasts to be all that great.
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