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Post by mcdermott on Sept 6, 2017 22:25:09 GMT
I am in the camp that while RNG 12 does do a lot for the Bombardiers, their UA is not verry well put together. The UA grants 3 abilities; none of which can be used in conjunction... that is just ineligent and downright useless IMO. Clearcut on a SPD 4 unit (alright 4+2" if you Kovnic them) makes them unbearably slow if they try and slog through a forest or rough terain. having them run through the forrest actually moves them the same distance and does not require the UA. Quick Work I like on the unit, and I hope it stays, but it conflicts with Clearcut which wants a normal advance; and Duel Shot which wants then to sacrifice to aim. Duel Shot will be dificult to pull off as teh Bombardiers will want to be moving every turn at SPD 4 to keep up with the battle. Not a bad mini-feat in most respects, and could be devastating if you get enough of them into position the turn before, but still difficult to pull off. If this goes into CID I will be advocating for a more cohesive pacage that does a simmilar thing: lets the Bombardiers position themselves easier and increases their number of attacks. Possibilities would include: -Relentless Charge -Native Pathfinder -Bushwhack -Duel Attack -Assault -Keeping Quick Work Clearcut lets them move into position and shoot, something they need to do as often as possible as they're a ranged unit with only 6 members in it. Clearcut is fine, not as GOOD as pathfinder but they don't really need it as charging them into combat is bad tactics or a last resort. Edit: on top of which, they actually need literally every speed boost in Khador in order to have the same threat range charging, as they do standing still to shoot. Quick work is there to help them clear people who run to jam them. Infantry units tend to either be already shot at, or outside 12" and will need to run to engage if they intend to jam them up. Dual shot is not going to be that hard to pull off, they're a second wave unit to begin with, and their cannons have arcing fire. Odds are good that if most enemy warcasters can feat and include them in a feat, they'd best be well positioned because they can also receive 2 pow 20's Bombardier CA is actually really well designed and i think the unit is really going to shock people come their themes release.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 6, 2017 22:31:36 GMT
I generally agree with ozvelpoon that the toolkit is contradictory, but I am encouraged by the effort to "make better". I like the 12" range. That's good. Quick Work. OK, I get that they want to give us an option to increase our attacks in the face of melee jammers, but this isn't going to work unless you've cleared out all enemies within melee range. At a minimum, the unit is going to need Gunfighter to make this at all useful, and Gunfighter would indeed be thematic and open up a some options. What I really would love to see is Quick Work + Point Blank + Gunfighter. . Dual Shot... hmmm... As the mini feat. I mean, is your opponent really just going to let your unit get 4-6 shots off with your aim bonus on 12" guns? If they're a 2nd wave unit, then the stuff "up front" is likely going to be engaged in melee with other stuff and you're not going to get these shots off. Pagain said this was to reward positioning, so I think PP wants to "see something" along these lines. If the mini feat also granted Far Strike then I would be ALL IN. Too powerful? For a mini-feat, maybe not. What do you think? Range 16". I would love it...
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 6, 2017 22:35:00 GMT
Thanks for the reply mcdermott, my major issue with the attachment is not so much its effectiveness as it disjointedness. The abilities seem to be trying to fix corner case issues with the unit rather than giving it a defined role on the field. Each ability does something, but I do not see any cumulative benefit just the sum of its parts.
I like your thinking Armchair, what about Relentless charge and quick work on the attachment with Guns Blazing as the Mini Feat? it would have all the same components just alleviate the action economy issues.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 6, 2017 23:22:05 GMT
Charging with the Bombardiers is misusing them, you're going to be disappointed with that every time, even if they gave them relentless charge, or assault, or anything. 10/16 isn't going to save them from anything in melee, and you're not going to actually land the charge on a speed 4 1" reach unit. It takes the kovnik, AND boundless charge or quicken, to even equal the range on their guns in CID, much less exceed it to the point that charging is worth it. A simple 2 man CRA equals an average charge attack.
They're a ranged unit that can fight back some, maybe survive a charge and clear their charger away and keep shooting. The harder you try to play them as combined arms, or a unit that has any business putting itself in melee, the less success you're going to have playing them. They only hit like IFP without reach after all.
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 6, 2017 23:30:03 GMT
Given the option to shoot or charge they do better at charging actually, but I do agree that they are not the best in melee. Combined arms seems to me the way PP sees them as well. A ranged unit that can take care of themselves if engaged or charge when they lack good targets to shoot.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 6, 2017 23:45:11 GMT
Given the option to shoot or charge they do better at charging actually, but I do agree that they are not the best in melee. Combined arms seems to me the way PP sees them as well. A ranged unit that can take care of themselves if engaged or charge when they lack good targets to shoot. No, they really dont. Their charge range is shorter than their gun range, they're a half unit of sub-par IFP in melee. Shooting back actually has trouble putting boxes of damage on them as cover/concealment etc can up their defense fairly easily just with positioning and it takes your average pow 10 gun 7-8 shots and your average pow 12 gun 3 shots to put a single model in the unit down. Two charging pow 10 melee (which is just about the lowest you can expect to see) can expect to kill one. In melee you have to concern yourself with weapon masters, and actual high pow attacks. It takes concentrated ranged fire to drop a single model. They aren't shocktroopers, they aren't going to recieve charges well, and they aren't going to land charges with any reliability.
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 7, 2017 0:25:58 GMT
You are obviously very opinionated on this point so here is my final response mcdermott. The Bombardiers do more damage and hit more accurately in melee. POW+STR 13 on the charge does more damage then an unboosted POW 14 that is all I meant. I did not even say anything about threat ranges in my post. I think that it is frankly embarrassing that our heavy infantry are even threatened by POW 10's, in melee or ranged. Everything depends on positioning in this game. Am I advocating melee or the high way? Of course not I am just pointing out that they have utility in many situations.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 0:38:41 GMT
My point is you'll likely never land the charge. If you're talking about charge damage you have to consider how likely it is that you'll be the one charging rather than being the one getting charged.
Are you going to target your bombardiers with the kovnik and hit them with a +2 speed spell in order to land that charge?
On top of that, as i said before. A 2 man CRA is a pow 16 shot, on average its going to do the same damage as a charging pow 13. A walk plus CRA is a threat range (with CID changes) of 16 inches. You can't match that on a charge, at very best you can kovnik + Strakhov1 feat for a 14" charging threat. Nearly every unit your opponent brings to get into melee is going to out threat your bombardiers.
Trying to push the CID for this unit to make them more of a melee/ranged hybrid is going to make it a terrible unit that doesn't do anything particularly well. Emphasizing the ranged aspect of it and shoring up the weakness of ranged units (things running to jam them) is going to create an effective unit.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 7, 2017 6:42:19 GMT
mcdermott I agree with your assessment on them. They should be setting up shop in a good spot (helped with Clear Cut), then shooting as much as possible. As soon as they get a chance they go for the dual shot mini-feat and they have Quickwork to help them out against anything that runs to jam, letting them keep up the shooting.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by skathrex on Sept 7, 2017 10:05:12 GMT
mcdermott and ozvelpoon I think you two are arguing different Points. Of cours a charge deals more dmg. WGRC deal more dmg charging then shooting. And of course it really easy to think Pow 13, Mat7 and their crit-thingy make them a good Melee Unit, which they still actually are. But thats the point where the UA starts to shine. Turn1-Run (preferedly behind or in terrain) Turn2- Walk through said terrain and shoot at stuff of the other side of the Zone (which, if there isn't any, gz your opponent just gave you a zone) Turn3- because of their longer range, your opponent probably can't reach them with a charge so either has to move forward or try to jam them. When jamming quick work helps to unjam. If they are not jammed they now can use their minifeat to double shoot something (or again have an empty zone ahead). Even if the enemy is in charge rng, depending on the modell it may be more usefull to minifeat over a charge, since you may be still able to charge next turn It doesn't look focues at first glance but they are more a rng Unit, but compared to WG, they have countermeassures and a lot more survivability to shooting (a charger on average doesn't kill 1 mow with 1 shot).
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 7, 2017 12:08:50 GMT
I am in the camp that while RNG 12 does do a lot for the Bombardiers, their UA is not verry well put together. The UA grants 3 abilities; none of which can be used in conjunction... that is just ineligent and downright useless IMO. Clearcut on a SPD 4 unit (alright 4+2" if you Kovnic them) makes them unbearably slow if they try and slog through a forest or rough terain. having them run through the forrest actually moves them the same distance and does not require the UA. Quick Work I like on the unit, and I hope it stays, but it conflicts with Clearcut which wants a normal advance; and Duel Shot which wants then to sacrifice to aim. Duel Shot will be dificult to pull off as teh Bombardiers will want to be moving every turn at SPD 4 to keep up with the battle. Not a bad mini-feat in most respects, and could be devastating if you get enough of them into position the turn before, but still difficult to pull off. If this goes into CID I will be advocating for a more cohesive pacage that does a simmilar thing: lets the Bombardiers position themselves easier and increases their number of attacks. Possibilities would include: -Relentless Charge -Native Pathfinder -Bushwhack -Duel Attack -Assault -Keeping Quick Work I can see where you don't like the design of this officer because none of the extra abilities it brings work with one another at the same time. When CID comes I wouldn't mind you advocating for native Pathfinder instead of Clear Cut, but I'm guessing that you won't get very far. The proposed range increase, and the nature of what this officer CA brings, seems to indicate that PP is trying to push the Bombardiers towards being a fire support unit first and a potential melee unit a distant second. I'm guessing that they don't want native Pathfinder on the unit primarily because they think it would allow them to be more melee capable. (Never mind the logic behind an officer ~somehow~ giving a unit of heavily armored guys the ability to deftly navigate broken ground in an effort to charge a target, but that's just me.) By the way, is there a unit attachment anywhere else in the game that gives its unit pathfinder, in any way? If anything, PP seemed to go to a lot of trouble to give the unit Pathfinder only on full advances (walking) by going through the trouble of creating a new rule. It would have been a lot easier to just simply slap Pathfinder on these guys and be done with it, but PP went to the trouble of making sure that Bombardiers did not get Pathfinder on a charge or when running. Since it seems that PP will dig their heels in and deny changes that will change how they feel a unit will fight, I'm betting that they will turn down suggestions to change Clear Cut to Pathfinder. But, I could be wrong. Either way, native Pathfinder or Clear Cut, I'd be happy.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 13:24:10 GMT
Well if they stick to clear cut change quick work.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 7, 2017 14:02:39 GMT
Well if they stick to clear cut change quick work. Why?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 14:13:30 GMT
Well if they stick to clear cut change quick work. Why? Because Quick work wants you to charge in. If they EXPLICITLY want the MOWs to stand back and Aim and generally avoid melee (Like the Clear Cut and Minifeat do) then don't give them an ability that really wants to encourage you killing stuff in melee.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 7, 2017 14:29:08 GMT
Because Quick work wants you to charge in. If they EXPLICITLY want the MOWs to stand back and Aim and generally avoid melee (Like the Clear Cut and Minifeat do) then don't give them an ability that really wants to encourage you killing stuff in melee. I don't agree that it's only for charging. It is for them to clear off infantry that has run to engage them while still letting them shooot that turn. Cheers, Dave
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