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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 28, 2017 8:16:32 GMT
Nope. Not getting involved this time. Aww cmon, you know you want to.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 28, 2017 9:01:38 GMT
OK, fine, you twisted my arm. Here's my fantasy Spriggan card: SprigganCard.png (93.28 KB) Mat 7 (most important thing by far IMHO, it's just stupid for him to have lower MAT than older designs like the Juggernaut). Stable (thematic since he's a clamjack, gives him a place as an objective holder who can do other stuff too). Arm 20 with a P+S 15 buckler instead of ARM19 with a P+S 14 shield (this one's a matter of personal taste, but he's a Khador jack, he should be ARM 20!). 18 points, just because it's a nice round number (without any 1 point models, it's easier to deal with even numbers) that is in line with other jacks like Torch. I went ahead and put the grenades together with no L or R system, just because that's how he was before, so why not.
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Post by skathrex on Aug 28, 2017 9:14:23 GMT
The model looks awesome, but I rarely play it, even as a Strakov1 player.
The Heaven Piercing spear is nice...but you won't kill a caster with that. Unless your opponent leaves him practically without focus/fury. A 15/15 with 2 Focus/Fury and 15 HP is a tough thing for a spriggan. Those are mediocre stats and disqualifiy him as an Assasination piece imo.
As to what could be done... The First Major Problem is, that he is a Clam-Chassi, so I would not/nor expect to see the Mat rise above6 or the Arm above 19. The shield is fine, but should be a higher pow. The Prictag is his main point why he isn't taken, followed by his lack of focus (of design that is).
I think OP has a good point. His grenades are an interesting gimmick, but I think they should be somehow reworked. Maybe let you choose between Flare and covering Fire? Something that gives some added utility. His main focus however should be his lance. So giving it KD would work (like the IF/Uhlans), but that would make him similar to the Grolar. Armor Piercing would be a interesting, and make him a "charge" Jack, that deals a lot of dmg while charging but practically non afterwards
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Post by samuraijaques on Aug 28, 2017 9:14:44 GMT
OK, fine, you twisted my arm. Here's my fantasy Spriggan card: Mat 7 (most important thing by far IMHO, it's just stupid for him to have lower MAT than older designs like the Juggernaut). Stable (thematic since he's a clamjack, gives him a place as an objective holder who can do other stuff too). Arm 20 with a P+S 15 buckler instead of ARM19 with a P+S 14 shield (this one's a matter of personal taste, but he's a Khador jack, he should be ARM 20!). 18 points, just because it's a nice round number (without any 1 point models, it's easier to deal with even numbers) that is in line with other jacks like Torch. I went ahead and put the grenades together with no L or R system, just because that's how he was before, so why not. this is a model I would play. it's not so powerful that it's an auto include but it is definitely something that could be considered. the spriggan as it stands is a very "corner case" warjack where if you aren't using it for a very specific purpose then why bother spending the points. This would make it awesome and playable in most lists. privateer press! look at this! this is what we want!
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Spriggans
Aug 28, 2017 9:31:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by kaos on Aug 28, 2017 9:31:00 GMT
OK, fine, you twisted my arm. Here's my fantasy Spriggan card: View AttachmentMat 7 (most important thing by far IMHO, it's just stupid for him to have lower MAT than older designs like the Juggernaut). Stable (thematic since he's a clamjack, gives him a place as an objective holder who can do other stuff too). Arm 20 with a P+S 15 buckler instead of ARM19 with a P+S 14 shield (this one's a matter of personal taste, but he's a Khador jack, he should be ARM 20!). 18 points, just because it's a nice round number (without any 1 point models, it's easier to deal with even numbers) that is in line with other jacks like Torch. I went ahead and put the grenades together with no L or R system, just because that's how he was before, so why not. The clam chassis is arm19, I prefer a +2 shield vs AP than a base arm of 20. I agree with the grenade launchers without system, it was a useless complication. But what's the stable ability?
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Spriggans
Aug 28, 2017 9:38:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by welshhoppo on Aug 28, 2017 9:38:10 GMT
OK, fine, you twisted my arm. Here's my fantasy Spriggan card: View AttachmentMat 7 (most important thing by far IMHO, it's just stupid for him to have lower MAT than older designs like the Juggernaut). Stable (thematic since he's a clamjack, gives him a place as an objective holder who can do other stuff too). Arm 20 with a P+S 15 buckler instead of ARM19 with a P+S 14 shield (this one's a matter of personal taste, but he's a Khador jack, he should be ARM 20!). 18 points, just because it's a nice round number (without any 1 point models, it's easier to deal with even numbers) that is in line with other jacks like Torch. I went ahead and put the grenades together with no L or R system, just because that's how he was before, so why not. The clam chassis is arm19, I prefer a +2 shield vs AP than a base arm of 20. I agree with the grenade launchers without system, it was a useless complication. But what's the stable ability? He means steady. It's the no knockdown thing the clams have. Yet the Spriggan lacks.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Aug 28, 2017 9:42:07 GMT
The clam chassis is arm19, I prefer a +2 shield vs AP than a base arm of 20. I agree with the grenade launchers without system, it was a useless complication. But what's the stable ability? He means steady. It's the no knockdown thing the clams have. Yet the Spriggan lacks. It does have it. It lacks sturdy, meaning no pushes.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 28, 2017 10:03:28 GMT
Right, Sturdy. Sorry, don't have my cards.
ARM 20+1 is effectively ARM 11 against AP, while ARM 19+2 is effectively ARM 12, so 19+2 gives you +1 arm against AP attacks. Meanwhile, ARM 20+1 is better against chain weapons, back strikes, and against attacks after you've had your left arm crippled. I believe these situations are more common overall than getting attacked by an AP weapon. Also, that would give you an open fist (which I forgot to include in the card), thereby increase the Spriggan's utility as a toolbox jack.
Yes, the Clamjacks go down to ARM 19, but those are special cases that designed around being ARM 23. The Spriggan may share the same Chassis but it's designed differently with a different configuration of it's armour, so it's hardly unreasonably for it to be ARM 20 base - in the fluff it weighs 50% more than the Juggernaut chassis, you would expect that to translate to some kind of advantage in-game (other than Bulldoze); more armour or boxes or a bigger engine or something, but it has nothing, only LOWER armour.
But like I said, that's just personal preference on my part. Arm 20+1 would (I think) be the highest native ARM after a Clamjack, so I understand if PP don't want that (even though it's only a slight buff over 19+2).
The Devastator was specifically designed not to need the higher-grade cortexes used by the Juggernaut chassis (by using weapons that don't need to be aimed), thus allowing Khador to make use of lower-grade cortexes, hence it's MAT 6. However the Spriggan was not designed that way, it was designed in response to a demand by the Empress herself for a warjack that would bring her victory. It makes sense that if you're designing a big heavy expensive melee jack and you'll be strapped to a Fellblade if you don't come up with something that will impress the Empress, that you would give it a better cortex.
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Post by leotherat on Aug 28, 2017 12:36:57 GMT
They should just strap a fell blade to the spriggan (in place of the spear) and call it a day. 2" reach and magic would be nice for it and then just leave the rest of it alone.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 28, 2017 12:51:24 GMT
It doesn't even do the same things as behemoth unless you blanket them both under 'throws out AOE's and 'hits things'. If I wanted a cheap behemoth I'd take a Destroyer. If I wanted or needed something with reach, well, now we're narrowing down the competition quite a bit Yeah, I was kinda comparing the Spriggan and Behemoth under the blanket of "throws out AOE's and hits things." Obviously the twin grenade launchers with the potential for targeting flare are quite different than the 2x Bombards with the Sub-cortex rule, but the rules differences are not as important as the price - is the Spriggan worth 19 points? I like your point about the Destroyer vs. the Behemoth - The Destroyer is pretty much half of a Behemoth in weapon load and just over half the cost. The 2" reach for the War Lance is one of the interesting little tidbits about the Spriggan vs. all of the other non-character Khador warjacks. It's nice to have 2" reach on a weapon, but have we grown so accustomed to not having reach on all of our other non-character warjacks that have accepted 1" melee range as "being Khador" and dropped interest in the benefits of 2" reach?
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 28, 2017 12:55:28 GMT
Add the keyword iron fang to the Warjack. Not sure what will happen but looks interesting in a LoS theme. All models are iron fangs, even jacks. I would be fine with that: Attachments:
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 28, 2017 13:32:47 GMT
Right, Sturdy. Sorry, don't have my cards. ARM 20+1 is effectively ARM 11 against AP, while ARM 19+2 is effectively ARM 12, so 19+2 gives you +1 arm against AP attacks. Meanwhile, ARM 20+1 is better against chain weapons, back strikes, and against attacks after you've had your left arm crippled. I believe these situations are more common overall than getting attacked by an AP weapon. Also, that would give you an open fist (which I forgot to include in the card), thereby increase the Spriggan's utility as a toolbox jack. I hadn't noticed that the Spriggan doesn't have the open fist. The clams both have +2 shields on arms with open fists, but I'm wondering if they are an exception just to give them melee weapons. Do any other warjacks that have a +2 shield have an open fist on that same arm? I was going to compare the Spriggan against all of the Protectorate warjacks that do have +2 shields to see if they have an open fist (they don't) when I took a look at the Scourge of Heresy (16 points) and the Templar (15 points). Now, I know we shouldn't compare warjacks from different factions, but... why are we paying 19 points for the Spriggan again? When the clams went from ARM17 with 2x +4 shields to ARM19 with 2x +2 shields I saw it as making the clams to work within the normal rules *and* giving the 3 jacks off of that chassis truly common stats. I hear what you're saying regarding the armor, size, etc. but I don't think PP will budge to what you are advocating primarily for fluff reasons, logic and game expediency be damned. I definitely think that the Spriggan needs to come down in points, grow in abilities up to something worth 19 points, or a reduction in cost with a minor increase in abilities.
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Spriggans
Aug 28, 2017 14:21:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by elricaltovilla on Aug 28, 2017 14:21:24 GMT
I'd like it if the spriggan's utility with the grenades was emphasized. Maybe assault or dual attack to make it easier to get the flares out. MAT 6 is less of a deal breaker for me because I also play trolls and MAT 6 is just to be expected with them.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 28, 2017 15:22:38 GMT
Tried to think what could change about Spriggan to make me take it over Juggy without specific niche use like "anti-stealth" and couldn't think of anything. You can make it mat 8, pow 20 on lance, arm 22 with shield and I still probably wouldn't. Having cheap beater that always trades up is one hell of a drug. I think all melee premium jacks pale in comparison to premium beasts because of Fury mechanic. The ones that are played like Ruin, Deathjack, Stormclad, etc. have some mechanic to help with focus management. When a 19pts Fury 4 beast can scrap a 19pts jack and jack can't do the reverse then there's no reason to take the jack. Speaking of which if you give Spriggan free Boundless charge like Ruin has then I would take it. Thats BS. If then would have to nerf just every other jack as well. The menothians use their more expensive jacks all the time, despite having the even more efficient Crusader and the choir. The spriggain is just messy. They use 16 pt Reckoners because they are generally better in melee than their 10-12 jacks. This is not the case with Juggy and Spriggan.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 28, 2017 15:37:58 GMT
When a 19pts Fury 4 beast can scrap a 19pts jack and jack can't do the reverse then there's no reason to take the jack. Its simple. Give it a reason. Premium Stuff can be good. The Kodiak is taken despite hitting weaker then the Jugger, so is Ruin (Despite souls being not universal as management mechanics) so is the Behemoth. Even the Grolar is taken as a premium beatstick for Pathfinder and Knockdown sometimes. Simply put the Spriggain just doesn't do enough AS a premium Jack. Probably our most premium of premiums and it doesn't do enough. Outside of being significantly (Not SUPER much but significantly) worse in melee than a Jugger, its role is confusing and it just doesn't do enough =P As it Stands (With Steady) it could be fine at like the 15 Point Mark and would be taken allot (And would fill a points Niche very well), but at 19 it's just not got enough for its cost. At the 18+ Point mark I want a premium Jack to be GOOD at multiple things or amazing at one thing, because often enough its gonna be paired up with a Light Jack or a cheap other heavy. The Spriggain is goodish in Melee, and Bad at ranged. So therefore its just not good enough.
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