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Post by albertairish on Sept 10, 2017 17:37:57 GMT
I don't see how a wide variety of casters getting a pretty insignificant benefit (Option 3) helps the faction at all. 1 more Fury a turn is not going to win any tournaments.
Option 2 might in Farrow lists, specifically Carver or Arkadius beast bricks. I don't think they're as strong as Rask or Calaban + Lessers with Option 1, because Rask + Friends was a proven winner in pre-theme MKIII, but at least it'd be something.
Option 3 seems designed to leave Minions wallowing in mediocrity. Hell, not even mediocrity, that's in the middle. Minions are at the bottom, and need models/themes to drag them up.
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Post by gobber on Sept 10, 2017 17:56:50 GMT
Kwaak and Gub are going to be a really big deal for them. Carver/Ark all battlegroup were already competitive lists before they could maximize free points and get overtake/enliven. WWFF is going to be the preferred theme for both Carver(Gremlins,Kwaak&Gub,Bokurs) and Ark (Skarath,Kwaak&Gub,Bokurs,Swampgobbers).
Then there's the hope of some swamp horror or spitter build coming out of nowhere with option 2. All those new releases incoming and potential for getting buffs to our existing models in the next CID cycle could further shake this up.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Sept 10, 2017 17:56:54 GMT
Rask Will benefit from saving 2 fury a turn which is a LOT. The rest will save 1. Some none. I do prefer they change it to battlegroup and not just warbeasts in the battlegroup. That way things like Escort and Warpath would be included as well.
I really prefer a small buff to everything before a large buff to one thing, but I also prefer Champions tournaments where not just he top casters are a thing,
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Post by albertairish on Sept 10, 2017 18:32:43 GMT
Kwaak and Gub are going to be a really big deal for them. Carver/Ark all battlegroup were already competitive lists before they could maximize free points and get overtake/enliven. Enliven is good. Menoth gets it for 3 points, FA:2. We'll see how much Enliven costs in Minions. I wish he/they/it could give Pathfinder instead of taking it away.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 10, 2017 20:39:19 GMT
I don't see how a wide variety of casters getting a pretty insignificant benefit (Option 3) helps the faction at all. 1 more Fury a turn is not going to win any tournaments. Option 2 might in Farrow lists, specifically Carver or Arkadius beast bricks. I don't think they're as strong as Rask or Calaban + Lessers with Option 1, because Rask + Friends was a proven winner in pre-theme MKIII, but at least it'd be something. Option 3 seems designed to leave Minions wallowing in mediocrity. Hell, not even mediocrity, that's in the middle. Minions are at the bottom, and need models/themes to drag them up. I've not actually seen anything impressive out of the Rask super friends list since the snake toss was errata'd out. Once that early game pressure was off the table its performance dropped back to pretty average levels, at least locally. I've certainly not seen anything to indicate that it's any better than Carver or Arkadius. Since the rise of Ghost Fleet it's seemed to me that the best pair Minions can muster is almost invariably an Arkadius/Calaban pairing. Rask certainly isn't a poor choice for people who prefer him (just obviously not into Ghost Fleet itself or anything like that), but Arkadius with option 2 versus Rask with option 1 still doesn't seem clear cut to me.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 10, 2017 20:56:00 GMT
Since the rise of Ghost Fleet it's seemed to me that the best pair Minions can muster is almost invariably an Arkadius/Calaban pairing. Rask certainly isn't a poor choice for people who prefer him (just obviously not into Ghost Fleet itself or anything like that), but Arkadius with option 2 versus Rask with option 1 still doesn't seem clear cut to me. Well, I'm not sure the competitive community agrees with you, at least for the very small number that are trying Minions at WTC. There are zero Arkadius lists, and 5 of the 6 have a Rask / Calaban or Jaga-Jaga pairing. There was 1 winning Arkadius list in 2017 on discountgames, and he was paired with Rask. Admittedly, there were only 3 Rask lists... because there were only 3 Minion winners total. All of them used Rask. Rask / Calaban is to me the obvious best pairing in Minions. A list that makes Arkadius/Carver better might bring them up to Rask's level.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 10, 2017 22:03:21 GMT
Well, I'm not sure the competitive community agrees with you, at least for the very small number that are trying Minions at WTC. There are zero Arkadius lists, and 5 of the 6 have a Rask / Calaban or Jaga-Jaga pairing. There was 1 winning Arkadius list in 2017 on discountgames, and he was paired with Rask. Admittedly, there were only 3 Rask lists... because there were only 3 Minion winners total. All of them used Rask. Rask / Calaban is to me the obvious best pairing in Minions. A list that makes Arkadius/Carver better might bring them up to Rask's level. I mean, the only reason there isn't at least one Arkadius list among the lot is because I couldn't afford the plane tickets from Australia to Europe again, now that I'm only working part-time. I'd usually consider myself part of the competitive community, so let's just say there's at least some disagreement internally about Minions. Gators have historically been more popular among competitive players than pigs due to them certainly being the stronger side during Mark II, and the nature of Minions as two distinct sub-factions makes it less likely for players to transition across the divide when something changed to alter that balance. So the numbers aren't particularly surprising, especially since we're dealing with such a small sample size.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 10, 2017 22:11:19 GMT
That's very true, and I'd love to see more strong competitive lists on either side of the Faction. Option 2 could certainly get Arkadius there. I just don't get what people think Option 3 will do to help anything.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 10, 2017 22:39:12 GMT
I don't disagree there I think it looks more attractive because it's a constant, consistent benefit, whereas option 2 can be less useful (usually going second into a gunline, for example). If Option 1 has already been disregarded because the player in question doesn't use or plan to use lessers, which many of us did, then Option 2 and 3 get compared directly and I understand the mentality that says "I'd like the buff that I can count on 100% of the time", even if I don't agree with it.
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Post by Tenzilla on Sept 10, 2017 23:46:43 GMT
Can we go back to the Spell slave model/unit discussion for a second?
Because I think the most important spell was overlooked.....
BATTLE LUST!!!!
Putting out 4+ battle lusted units with Midas...sounds insane.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 11, 2017 0:24:59 GMT
Can we go back to the Spell slave model/unit discussion for a second? Because I think the most important spell was overlooked..... BATTLE LUST!!!! Putting out 4+ battle lusted units with Midas...sounds insane. They'll probably only be available to Midas out of theme. For me that's a deal breaker, but yup, that seems good if you're willing to give up ~16 free points.
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Post by gobber on Sept 11, 2017 0:25:39 GMT
Can we go back to the Spell slave model/unit discussion for a second? Because I think the most important spell was overlooked..... BATTLE LUST!!!! Putting out 4+ battle lusted units with Midas...sounds insane. Wait what *checks cards* I'm still hoping for a voodoo/bonegrinding theme; the lack of soul slaves and shamblers in WWFF makes me hopeful
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Post by Azahul on Sept 11, 2017 0:47:33 GMT
Pretty sure they're covered with the Blindwater theme?
You know, I don't think I've ever actually had a problem with Midas resource-wise, anything his army reaches always evaporates on contact pretty easily. He just needs some method to deliver his army. Maybe a mixed force of Valkyries and Shamblers with some Brigands for early attrition firepower and the Soul Slaves could do it.
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Post by Gaston on Sept 11, 2017 1:17:25 GMT
Pretty sure they're covered with the Blindwater theme? You know, I don't think I've ever actually had a problem with Midas resource-wise, anything his army reaches always evaporates on contact pretty easily. He just needs some method to deliver his army. Maybe a mixed force of Valkyries and Shamblers with some Brigands for early attrition firepower and the Soul Slaves could do it. I am jealous. My Midas goes naked on fury so often he should be arrested for streaking.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 11, 2017 1:18:50 GMT
I am jealous. My Midas goes naked on fury so often he should be arrested for streaking. I am jealous. It sounds like you actually have models left when it's time for Midas to start casting spells
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