dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Sept 9, 2017 6:37:59 GMT
In a meta full of Nemo3 Heavy Metal, pDenny Ghost Fleet, Vlad2 Rocket Spam, etc, etc, I need power lists to compete. And the very best power list that could come out of this theme and the presented options is Rask and Friends with Option 1. So that's what I want. For similar reasons, I desperately want a Theme which helps Carver and Arkadius (which would be my drop into several of these lists) so Option 1 would be useless to me. A Battlegroup-centric Warlock needs benefits for their Battlegroup or the Theme becomes meaningless as a beast theme (and it would make me sad to have to run Thornfall Alliance when we actually have a beast-centric theme).
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Post by Azahul on Sept 9, 2017 7:19:34 GMT
I think you're probably right in that Options 2 and 3 lead to a greater "spreading" of advantage across the various Warlocks. But for me that's not my aim. In a meta full of Nemo3 Heavy Metal, pDenny Ghost Fleet, Vlad2 Rocket Spam, etc, etc, I need power lists to compete. And the very best power list that could come out of this theme and the presented options is Rask and Friends with Option 1. So that's what I want. Option 2 doesn't quite match up because often the Lessers want to animus up and then charge/trample, so no benefit at all. I would have loved the original theme that would have greatly benefited all casters. But that's not going to happen, and I'll take a great theme for a couple of casters over a good theme for a bunch of casters. Because good doesn't really cut it when great is on the other side of the table. Like dagowit, that is the exact same reason I want my Arkadius list to get better (and to a lesser extent, my Carver alt list). Frankly, since the snake toss was taken away I've never felt the Rask super friends build actually out-competes Arkadius.
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Post by custardboy on Sept 9, 2017 7:39:52 GMT
I don't think its worth going to Thornfall alliance over WWFF even if there isn't a third benefit. You may prefer retaliatory strike rather than overtake with Arkadius, but 4 free solos as well? Choice seems easy to me. I'm also happier having to outplay a great list with a good list and having access to 5+ good lists than have 1-2 great lists and the rest below average.
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Post by Gaston on Sept 9, 2017 12:14:14 GMT
You take Thornfall over WWFF if you want a Brigand gunline. So....Midas, maybe Helga. Providing that you don't think you will get similar performance out of Nyss.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 9, 2017 14:31:46 GMT
I don't think its worth going to Thornfall alliance over WWFF even if there isn't a third benefit. You may prefer retaliatory strike rather than overtake with Arkadius, but 4 free solos as well? Choice seems easy to me. I'm also happier having to outplay a great list with a good list and having access to 5+ good lists than have 1-2 great lists and the rest below average. Hmmm. There are some match-ups where I would genuinely prefer the Retaliatory Strike. Amon, Khador 'jack spam, that kind of thing. The solos we have are good but they aren't going to swing attrition as effectively as even the threat of a random Crit Knockdown. Which isn't to say that I'd always play Arkadius in Thornfall if that happens. I'd need to take a look at what people in the meta are currently running and tailor accordingly. That changes if we get Option 2. The extra board presence makes WWFF unequivocally better.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 9, 2017 14:57:35 GMT
I can understand the perspective of wanting to make Arkadius / Carver battlegroup armies strong through Option 2. I'm not convinced it makes them equal to or better than Rask + Lessers with Option 1, but I get it.
But man alive Option 3 sucks. Giving up any chance at a powerful list in theme so that 80% casters can get a tiny bit better would be a waste.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Sept 9, 2017 16:21:00 GMT
Maybe I am of a less common opinion here but personally I would rather have the theme force be useful for a larger amount of casters and lists for the variety as apposed to a theme that makes one of our already strong lists stronger. I understand that minions has really never had a power list like double storm lances or Una2 and the Scarsfells but I would rather maintain a stronger internal balance than see cool models that never get used for the sake of competitiveness. My vote is option 2 since it provides all of our casters a sizable bonus no matter what army type they decide to run in theme.
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Post by Gaston on Sept 9, 2017 17:25:04 GMT
Man, we never fought like this when it was Advance Move...
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Post by gobber on Sept 9, 2017 17:56:27 GMT
And the next CID cycle is minions too. Get ready for the hunger(ford) games!
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 9, 2017 20:40:28 GMT
May victory favor the hungry!
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Post by albertairish on Sept 9, 2017 20:48:56 GMT
Maybe I am of a less common opinion here but personally I would rather have the theme force be useful for a larger amount of casters and lists for the variety as apposed to a theme that makes one of our already strong lists stronger. I understand that minions has really never had a power list like double storm lances or Una2 and the Scarsfells but I would rather maintain a stronger internal balance than see cool models that never get used for the sake of competitiveness. My vote is option 2 since it provides all of our casters a sizable bonus no matter what army type they decide to run in theme. I think that's a perfectly normal stance for non-competitive players to take. You want to use all of the models that you have because they're cool models. I'm mostly interested in winning tournaments using cool Minion models.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Sept 10, 2017 3:42:22 GMT
If they can get some kind of boosting mechanic (spending souls or boxes?) then free Mortaliy might be nice We do have telemetry in faction now so the lists that have Vaults in them they will be magic ability 7. It is an expensive option, but an option none the less. Telemetry on the vaults is a huge bonus, its expensive to just take it for that purpose but I have found that most of my blind water lists have a vault anyway so its a very welcome bonus.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Sept 10, 2017 6:40:37 GMT
I think that's a perfectly normal stance for non-competitive players to take. You want to use all of the models that you have because they're cool models. I'm mostly interested in winning tournaments using cool Minion models. I feel he same way and I'm a competitive player. I find Rask+friends a boring list, regardless of how good it is, and personally I don't find it that good. It's an alright list, sure. But I think Rask can be better without friends (or with just one) or another caster can reach his level, it depends completely on what you face. Personally I'd rather have a theme that make most of our casters better instead of just Rask. Which is also a lot better for ADR or Champions as Rask isn't there so the theme won't be played there unless benfit 2 or 3 is used.
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Post by albertairish on Sept 10, 2017 16:49:03 GMT
I think that's a perfectly normal stance for non-competitive players to take. You want to use all of the models that you have because they're cool models. I'm mostly interested in winning tournaments using cool Minion models. I feel he same way and I'm a competitive player. I find Rask+friends a boring list, regardless of how good it is, and personally I don't find it that good. It's an alright list, sure. But I think Rask can be better without friends (or with just one) or another caster can reach his level, it depends completely on what you face. Personally I'd rather have a theme that make most of our casters better instead of just Rask. Which is also a lot better for ADR or Champions as Rask isn't there so the theme won't be played there unless benfit 2 or 3 is used. I think that Rask and Friends is magnitudes more interesting to play than most power lists, and most lists in the game. Far more interesting than Vlad Rockets, Ghost Fleet, and frankly more interesting than Rask + Posse as well. The Lessers have some of the most interesting synergies and abilities in the game. People were piloting it to tournament wins before it became necessary to play in theme to stay competitive, and a theme that benefited it would put it back in that spot immediately. The strength of a faction in tournament play is measured entirely by the strength of its strongest lists. No Power Lists added by a theme? No real power added to the faction. Just more background noise, like many themes in the game.
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Post by gobber on Sept 10, 2017 17:12:58 GMT
The strength of a faction in tournament play is measured entirely by the strength of its strongest lists. No Power Lists added by a theme? No real power added to the faction. Just more background noise, like many themes in the game. Between second lists, Rask not really wanting to deal with some matchups ala ghost fleet, Champions, ADR, etc, I feel like even competitively there's a pressing need to get a bit more variety out of the theme than that. #2 or #3 would both probably benefit Rask/Ark/Carver most anyway and give some new options to the other frequent contenders for second lists which would be much more beneficial for the faction
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