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Post by dmorktry on Sept 18, 2017 1:52:33 GMT
Then PP is wasting a lot of resources by not looking at suggestions, I've never known a company to so adamantly suggest they're right and others are wrong.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Sept 18, 2017 2:30:56 GMT
Then PP is wasting a lot of resources by not looking at suggestions, I've never known a company to so adamantly suggest they're right and others are wrong. So..... you mean all the other companies that don't involve customers in beta testing their products don't exist? Besides, how do we know PP isn't looking at suggestions? Just because they don't say anything, doesn't mean that they don't see things. And how would they waste resources in not playtesting every single thing people come up with when doing those playtests will make CID cycles longer, more complicated, and ergo eat up more resources?
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 18, 2017 2:31:29 GMT
How exactly are the new Khador themes good? Unless of course by good you mean "completely bland and antisinergetic" Meanwhile, Menoth gets FM: Hand of Vengeance Are you kidding me...you are joking right? The khador themes are awesome. Legion of steel, winter gaurd kommand, and Jaws of the wolf have great benefits and great synergy. Those are not the new Khador themes
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 18, 2017 2:48:30 GMT
The man of war theme looks promising. I agree the greylord theme seems meh but I think we are getting off topic Scrub_of_Menoth , I think part of the problem I have had is less with the devs as much as it is seeing people who do not play certain factions (ie: protectorate/trolls) complain about everything being op, but happily ignore incredibly potent things in thier own faction. I try to be pretty unbiased in CoD. There were multiple points where I considered increasing the cost of the woldwatden, Fulcrum, Heck my initial reactions to deliverers was to increase cost. So when I see lots of moaning that results in reductions of power in one factions CiD CiD, while certain factions seem to just get handed positive changes in thier cid ir makes me a tad flustered. I am not saying that my observations are correct, or that all players of X faction are annoying whiners. But I do think (IMO) based on what I have seen, there seems to be some serious faction discrepancy. For example, people got upset with me for saying carapace was too potent. But my issue was less about it being hard to kill cryx jacks on the approach, and more with armywide free strike "immunity" Cryx heavies that can casually walk anywhere is an issue. (By the way this is an example of people being ok with something I view as being too potent not an excuse to argue about the cryx theme)
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Sept 18, 2017 8:43:41 GMT
I've had a chance to think about this, so I'm going to play a little devil's advocate for CID.
If we look at what CID has given the Protectorate, we see that we have playable Deliverers, Faithful Masses theme and a decent battle engine.
It has given us a Buff to Bastions, although that was because Sanguine Bond had to change to make another unit functional.
The Champion is a functional solo, though it doesn't seem to bring enough to regular Paladins and I think that's where the issue with it lies.
The point I'm trying to make is that we have had some love from CID. Whether it's enough, I'll leave up to you.
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 18, 2017 10:14:17 GMT
It raises a question, is PoM's non-standout design the goal, or is a tide of balance and imbalance the goal. The "tide" approach is common in video games, usually MOBAs, this works because metas do get stale and the meta is more universal than regional, but in table top games where there's a much larger time and money investment just to field something for the first time, it doesn't work. But then there's the third option of there being no plan at all which I'm more inclined to believe. I have zero confidence in the PoM side of things for PP, between "let your vengers get hit so they can charge out of forests", them ignoring a lot of the CID feedback when they could have at least addressed it in greater detail than "it's fine", and the fact that we entered MK3 with so many questionable decisions like ignoring half our roster, I really don't know how others find their optimism. I'd like for the next PoM CID cycle to fix this, show to the community that they're listening to us, know that we're not children and can tell when something is working as intended or not. Every interaction with staff over PoM just seems like a holier than thou "x is perfect, you're just not using it right." I honestly just assumed they were doing tide of imbalance like most games do these days... hearthstone/MOBAs etc... its phenomenally easier than balancing everyone to the same point. That's why I have such issue with protectorate and a few other factions being so well "balanced" because they don't apply the same standards to all the factions. This has been argued many times before, each faction should have an imbalance (read mildly OP area) /skew that impinges on the meta. Otherwise balanced mediocrity is a deadzone where everyone else's imbalance just stomps you the whole time. Protectorate can keep bringing its strong internal balance until the cows come home but it will still lose to everyone's skews and never ask any questions of the opponent. The closest we are going to have to ridiculous Cryx/Cygnar themes will be FM with Amon and that's only if they don't just scrap Hand of vengeance and decide to give all the jacks girded or some other nonsense. The Champion will be bought because it's a nice model but it will not be competitive with girded or as a solo when you can have two allegiants for 3/4 of the price - who are more survivable.
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Post by paradox on Sept 18, 2017 13:07:10 GMT
On the offense, and for personal defense, the champ is just fine. It's ridiculously easy to get him to a PS18 charge, with POW14 impacts. It's similarly easy to get him to an effective 17/22 while also debuffing around him from Ashen Veil. There's real potential as a hitter. I think where PP missed its stated mark was making him a "mobile bastion of the faith." That doesnt appear anywhere to me.
Personally, I think Girded is a trap ability most of the time or swapping to EC Roadblock, hed be much more "mobile bastion."
If you need a fast hard hitter thats durable and takes buffs, hes a strong contender as-is.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 18, 2017 13:20:38 GMT
The problem with the champ CID is that he started from a really bad place and there was only so much time to test and tweak. Retaliatory strike, unyielding, even defensive strike are all garbage on a 1" reach model. We had to test that out to show why they were bad ideas and that took up the first half of the CID. PP added the shield removed what wasn't working and gave us Girded. This was a step in the right direction but still not enough for an 8pt dragoon.
Further testing and tweaking is/was required but time just ran out. I personally was only able to get one game in with him after the change and it wasn't anywhere near enough to make a final call on him. I'm sure they're watching and listening to what was said about him and it will be interesting to see where his final rule set lands. I agree with paradox that his offense and personnel defense are just fine but if that's all he does then he should be 6 or 7 pts. 8pts for a combat solo is a tough ask and those same buffs are better applied directly to units where there effect is maximized. If we ever get a caster with storm rager though this guys stock goes up up up!
Any calls that PP hates POM or that the faction is bad are way off base though. As noted above FM gave us some serious love, zealots are now great, redeemers will be coming off the shelves if left per CID, and we still haven't got our POM dedicated CID cycle so who knows how that will turn out. PP got a ton of feedback that paladins in general are bad so keep your fingers crossed. There are only so many hours in a day and this game has more models and unit entries than just about any other system in circulation so be patient. If that doesn't work for you guys then take break. POM will go through the cycle eventually.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Sept 18, 2017 16:42:35 GMT
Hardly cherrypicked, more than half of the comments on that post are either ad hominem, witch (GT or SB) accusations, or offering no rebuttal at all to the argument. If the argument was as "whiny" or "entitled" as some people seem to believe, it'd be easier to refute it with facts than just drivel, correct? As it stands, PoM seems to have an uphill battle with the CID process, hell, they've had an uphill battle most of MK3. PoM isn't in a bad spot, just an incredibly boring spot and release after release of flawed releases doesn't help them. Full disclosure- I am as active on the FB group as I am here. Here's the thing- the PoM FB group is tired in general of rebuttals, when all the prior concerns have been aired out ad nauseum since CID began in multiple venues of discussion. This makes it a lot more tedious to go through each point and rebut each one, though there have been some pretty good points on that. Personally I find that both groups have their own distinct brand of salt and silliness. Also uphill in what way? Model variety? Model rules whose effectiveness are very subjective and must not be considered in a vacuum? Finally who's to say PP in general (Pagani specifically) don't read this forum? Just because they haven't shown up doesn't mean they don't. And PP is getting real good at not responding to unsolicited feedback. One of the main reasons why people had such a negative reaction to the OP is because the original rant was phrased in such a "Pay attention to me sempai!" way. Nobody wants that. In all honesty, if they never post I can't tell, so I crossposted to somewhere they have. I only did the crosspost because I, personally, felt someone at PP should see that particular post and had explicit permission to do so. The problem with the champ CID is that he started from a really bad place and there was only so much time to test and tweak. Retaliatory strike, unyielding, even defensive strike are all garbage on a 1" reach model. We had to test that out to show why they were bad ideas and that took up the first half of the CID. PP added the shield removed what wasn't working and gave us Girded. This was a step in the right direction but still not enough for an 8pt dragoon. Further testing and tweaking is/was required but time just ran out. I personally was only able to get one game in with him after the change and it wasn't anywhere near enough to make a final call on him. I'm sure they're watching and listening to what was said about him and it will be interesting to see where his final rule set lands. I agree with paradox that his offense and personnel defense are just fine but if that's all he does then he should be 6 or 7 pts. 8pts for a combat solo is a tough ask and those same buffs are better applied directly to units where there effect is maximized. If we ever get a caster with storm rager though this guys stock goes up up up! Any calls that PP hates POM or that the faction is bad are way off base though. As noted above FM gave us some serious love, zealots are now great, redeemers will be coming off the shelves if left per CID, and we still haven't got our POM dedicated CID cycle so who knows how that will turn out. PP got a ton of feedback that paladins in general are bad so keep your fingers crossed. There are only so many hours in a day and this game has more models and unit entries than just about any other system in circulation so be patient. If that doesn't work for you guys then take break. POM will go through the cycle eventually. Sorry, but....no. there was PLENTY of time, PP just ignored the model for half of it. We had a week of feedback and he was "near perfect". Then we had another week of feedback and it was "Oh guess not. Here's a shield and girded." Then we had like 4 days of feedback and then CID went dark. In that time they had like 3 Dev Talks*, plenty of other changes, mountains of feedback. He was ignored for an entire week and pronounced fine. *Not saying these were anything but good. Crosse 2 week 1 was disgustingly ineffective, the minion theme had some weird balance issues, orion may have come out a tad OP but nothing we can't ultimately can't handle and in the meantime the clocks get a shiny, etc.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 18, 2017 18:30:01 GMT
Plenty of time among testing a whole slew of models across all factions simultaneously? No.
You try and aggregate that much feedback in one weeks time and make something of it. While still trying to design whatever new models are on your plate and simultaneously test it all. Lets see how well you do. I'm not a fan of the final product but I can at least acknowledge the realities of the magnitude of the work that the team is trying to accomplish in such a short time frame.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Sept 18, 2017 19:17:58 GMT
Which wraps around to the arguments made about 3 pages ago: look who got ignored when the workload got too heavy.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Sept 18, 2017 19:55:40 GMT
Plenty of time among testing a whole slew of models across all factions simultaneously? No. You try and aggregate that much feedback in one weeks time and make something of it. While still trying to design whatever new models are on your plate and simultaneously test it all. Lets see how well you do. I'm not a fan of the final product but I can at least acknowledge the realities of the magnitude of the work that the team is trying to accomplish in such a short time frame. I wrote in the feedback email that got sent out the other day that I felt that parts of the CID were ineffective when it came to feedback, and that a lot of the community felt isolated because ideas were either being ignored or outright disregarded. Unfortunately the timeframe was simply too short when it comes to really digging deep into models and development. I am actually quite glad I started this little thread. It's focussing everyone and is actually generating some really good ideas.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Sept 18, 2017 22:35:56 GMT
It's been an excellent thread, but PP just gave us girded and hung up the phone, so I'm not sure it mattered.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Sept 19, 2017 6:06:18 GMT
Which wraps around to the arguments made about 3 pages ago: look who got ignored when the workload got too heavy. Everybody really, ask Mercs and Circle or even Cygnar if you don't believe that
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Post by WantonRanger,,, on Sept 21, 2017 15:52:44 GMT
Faithful masses thoughts... has anyone considered malekus? I was theorising (noobishly) that you may do a shedload of damage on his feat term with all the fire damage... Obviously kept the sanctifiers for efficiency and anti-incorp shenanigans/more magical weaps.... everything else bar the allegiants is rocking fire.... conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0OfZ1SgS3U3U3k3k2_2W2WjI2ijI2iProtectorate Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] The Faithful Masses (CID) !!! Your army contains CID entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Malekus 1) Malekus, the Burning Truth [+30] - Castigator [12] - Eye of Truth [20] - Sanctifier [14] - Sanctifier [14] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [0(3)] Allegiant of the Order of the Fist [0(3)] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Deliverer Sunburst Crew [5] Deliverer Sunburst Crew [5] Holy Zealots (max) [12] - Monolith Bearer [3] Holy Zealots (max) [12] - Monolith Bearer [3] +/- wrack.mechanik to taste
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