|
Post by Azuresun on Sept 17, 2017 21:40:15 GMT
Eh, even amongst the cherrypicked comments (GJ ignoring everything else), none of it seems that billous. It's an overly emotive, entitled whine, and it got called out as an overly emotive, entitled whine.
|
|
|
Post by dmorktry on Sept 17, 2017 22:05:39 GMT
Eh, even amongst the cherrypicked comments (GJ ignoring everything else), none of it seems that billous. It's an overly emotive, entitled whine, and it got called out as an overly emotive, entitled whine. Hardly cherrypicked, more than half of the comments on that post are either ad hominem, witch (GT or SB) accusations, or offering no rebuttal at all to the argument. If the argument was as "whiny" or "entitled" as some people seem to believe, it'd be easier to refute it with facts than just drivel, correct? As it stands, PoM seems to have an uphill battle with the CID process, hell, they've had an uphill battle most of MK3. PoM isn't in a bad spot, just an incredibly boring spot and release after release of flawed releases doesn't help them.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Sept 17, 2017 22:08:24 GMT
lets not be reposting a bunch of insults from other sites, that's a buttmunch thing to do. also keep it civil in here or someones gonna have a bad time.
|
|
|
Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Sept 17, 2017 22:17:29 GMT
Eh, even amongst the cherrypicked comments (GJ ignoring everything else), none of it seems that billous. It's an overly emotive, entitled whine, and it got called out as an overly emotive, entitled whine. Hardly cherrypicked, more than half of the comments on that post are either ad hominem, witch (GT or SB) accusations, or offering no rebuttal at all to the argument. If the argument was as "whiny" or "entitled" as some people seem to believe, it'd be easier to refute it with facts than just drivel, correct? As it stands, PoM seems to have an uphill battle with the CID process, hell, they've had an uphill battle most of MK3. PoM isn't in a bad spot, just an incredibly boring spot and release after release of flawed releases doesn't help them. Full disclosure- I am as active on the FB group as I am here. Here's the thing- the PoM FB group is tired in general of rebuttals, when all the prior concerns have been aired out ad nauseum since CID began in multiple venues of discussion. This makes it a lot more tedious to go through each point and rebut each one, though there have been some pretty good points on that. Personally I find that both groups have their own distinct brand of salt and silliness. Also uphill in what way? Model variety? Model rules whose effectiveness are very subjective and must not be considered in a vacuum? Finally who's to say PP in general (Pagani specifically) don't read this forum? Just because they haven't shown up doesn't mean they don't. And PP is getting real good at not responding to unsolicited feedback. One of the main reasons why people had such a negative reaction to the OP is because the original rant was phrased in such a "Pay attention to me sempai!" way. Nobody wants that.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 17, 2017 22:42:47 GMT
To be fair I was posting for it to stay in the PoM thread,/forum (even on Facebook) and it's not like I didn't give reasons or examples. I also do not have Facebook so was unaware that this was a common thing on there.
I'm not saying it was this masterpiece opinion. But I do think of you are going to respond at all it's worth it to at least engage in discussion. Never intended the post to be this big "Notice me Senpai" I don't expect it to change any opinions or change anything honestly. It was just a rant.
|
|
|
Post by dmorktry on Sept 17, 2017 22:46:10 GMT
Hardly cherrypicked, more than half of the comments on that post are either ad hominem, witch (GT or SB) accusations, or offering no rebuttal at all to the argument. If the argument was as "whiny" or "entitled" as some people seem to believe, it'd be easier to refute it with facts than just drivel, correct? As it stands, PoM seems to have an uphill battle with the CID process, hell, they've had an uphill battle most of MK3. PoM isn't in a bad spot, just an incredibly boring spot and release after release of flawed releases doesn't help them. Full disclosure- I am as active on the FB group as I am here. Here's the thing- the PoM FB group is tired in general of rebuttals, when all the prior concerns have been aired out ad nauseum since CID began in multiple venues of discussion. This makes it a lot more tedious to go through each point and rebut each one, though there have been some pretty good points on that. Personally I find that both groups have their own distinct brand of salt and silliness. Also uphill in what way? Model variety? Model rules whose effectiveness are very subjective and must not be considered in a vacuum? Finally who's to say PP in general (Pagani specifically) don't read this forum? Just because they haven't shown up doesn't mean they don't. And PP is getting real good at not responding to unsolicited feedback. One of the main reasons why people had such a negative reaction to the OP is because the original rant was phrased in such a "Pay attention to me sempai!" way. Nobody wants that. I genuinely find the Facebook group agreeable but that post seemed to shake a whole lot of non-content out of the tree. Uphill as in "PoM is in a great spot in a vacuum but boring when compared to the other factions." It's my opinion and belief that PoM sits in a really weird spot for PP, whether this is because of the people in charge of them or what they have planned for the future. We get releases like the Purifier, the Arms Master (or whatever the Deliverer solo is), and to a lesser extent, the Indictor (I'm whelmed with him but I can see why he is, or at least was, very polarizing) that just make me go "why?" as in "why do they think we need a worse Dervish with highly situation corner cases that'd make us glad to have it?" Some factions are designed fast and loose, it's how Storm Lances came to be how they were, but PoM is designed so needlessly conservative (Eye of Truth and pseudo field marshal in FM excluded), it feels like we're designed weakness first, they throw 2-3 things that slightly mitigate the weakness, and then one actually fun and good thing, and that's in order of things they remember or put the most effort in. And the worst thing of all, is that we're just barely in the "no problems" camp, which is frustrating, imagine being 1 cent into the next tax bracket. If anything, I think our position is more detrimental than if we had more problems because as is, it's the main cause of how polarized our community is on our standing. I don't know too much about the other factions but the other one I play, Gatormen, seem to be able to have pretty civil discussions about the viability of units where as a large amount of PoM units are right on the line of "this is okay" and "this needs to be fixed" and as demonstrated in multiple threads, there's no common ground for those sides most of the time. EDIT: I also didn't pick up on any "notice me, sempai" vibes. When I saw it I thought "Kinda weird he asked for permission (I assumed he PM'd him) but what's this post, oh, it seems to be a condensed argument I've seen expressed multiple times by people with evidence to support it, I wonder what the comments ar- oh"
|
|
|
Post by WantonRanger on Sept 17, 2017 23:32:21 GMT
I cringe every time I hear someone say how internally balanced protectorate is because it's basically code for you have nothing standout at all...
Idrians are basically the one unit I hear people talk about when I play them... other than that Protectorate doesn't seem to impose itself on the meta at all. every faction should have a skew which forces the opponent to have to adapt slightly.... they are literally throwing good stuff at cryx and cygnar.
For example: our Jack theme is our only consistently usable theme presently and lo and behold they do cryx's jack theme and start throwing about insane buffs like Carapace.
I think it's perfectly understandable that people may be miffed when PP thinks girded is an exciting rule for our new paladin champion. It's like they normally think "what's the least adventurous, non-exciting, watch paint dry ability I can paste onto a protectorate unit to make it as super vanilla as everything else"
The other option is to watch them indirectly buff long term complaints about our own units but only when they CID whatever new subfaction/models they are trying to push next i.e. Sanguine bond and troll champions.
I'm seriously hoping faithful masses keeps hand of vengeance as it may provide an actually good theme as oppose to our current selection of basically one usable theme (CM). Obviously In like 10 months they will CID exemplars and the interdiction theme might become better as well.
|
|
|
Post by dmorktry on Sept 18, 2017 0:00:52 GMT
It raises a question, is PoM's non-standout design the goal, or is a tide of balance and imbalance the goal. The "tide" approach is common in video games, usually MOBAs, this works because metas do get stale and the meta is more universal than regional, but in table top games where there's a much larger time and money investment just to field something for the first time, it doesn't work. But then there's the third option of there being no plan at all which I'm more inclined to believe.
I have zero confidence in the PoM side of things for PP, between "let your vengers get hit so they can charge out of forests", them ignoring a lot of the CID feedback when they could have at least addressed it in greater detail than "it's fine", and the fact that we entered MK3 with so many questionable decisions like ignoring half our roster, I really don't know how others find their optimism. I'd like for the next PoM CID cycle to fix this, show to the community that they're listening to us, know that we're not children and can tell when something is working as intended or not. Every interaction with staff over PoM just seems like a holier than thou "x is perfect, you're just not using it right."
|
|
doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
|
Post by doopsie on Sept 18, 2017 0:02:45 GMT
imagine being 1 cent into the next tax bracket. FYI, if my understanding is correct, that's not how US taxes work. If you're one cent into the next tax bracket, you only get taxed the new rate on that one cent. For example, 2017 Tax brackets were 10% for taxable income less than $9325 for a single income, 15% for incomes of $9326 to $37,950, 25% for incomes of $37,951 to $91,900, and so forth. If you exceed a bracket, you pay the rate for that bracket, then pay the rate for the next bracket on your remaining money. If I, hypothetically, earned $20,000 in taxable income, then I would pay the following: 0.1 x 9325 = 0932.50 +0.15 x (20,000 - 9325) = 1061.25 $1993.75 For comparison, if I were taxed the rate on all money earned once I crossed into a new bracket, I would have paid: 0.15x20,000 = $3000 Which is easier to calculate, but I want that extra $1,000. That's like, 3 units of Vengers I could afford. Granted, this is wildly off-topic. I just find it interesting.
|
|
|
Post by dmorktry on Sept 18, 2017 0:07:34 GMT
imagine being 1 cent into the next tax bracket. FYI, if my understanding is correct, that's not how US taxes work. If you're one cent into the next tax bracket, you only get taxed the new rate on that one cent. For example, 2017 Tax brackets were 10% for taxable income less than $9325 for a single income, 15% for incomes of $9326 to $37,950, 25% for incomes of $37,951 to $91,900, and so forth. If you exceed a bracket, you pay the rate for that bracket, then pay the rate for the next bracket on your remaining money. If I, hypothetically, earned $20,000 in taxable income, then I would pay the following: 0.1 x 9325 = 0932.50 +0.15 x (20,000 - 9325) = 1061.25 $1993.75 For comparison, if I were taxed the rate on all money earned once I crossed into a new bracket, I would have paid: 0.15x20,000 = $3000 Which is easier to calculate, but I want that extra $1,000. That's like, 3 units of Vengers I could afford. Granted, this is wildly off-topic. I just find it interesting. As the flashbacks to 12th grade Econ fade away, you are correct. My initial comparison was going to be "you're sick, but not sick enough to justify calling out of work, just means the time you spend at work is going to suck that much more"
|
|
doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
|
Post by doopsie on Sept 18, 2017 0:08:58 GMT
Wow, they taught you taxes in econ!? I only got macroecon, which was all about...guns and butter, I think?
|
|
|
Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Sept 18, 2017 0:43:22 GMT
As much as I find the aside fascinating, I'm going to have to keep it consistent and say keep it on topic please Right, the state of Protectorate, at least in my opinion after observation of multiple avenues of discussion, depends on which particular hivemind one is in tune in. But the most common opinion I've seen is that "PoM is not perfect, but is in a good spot, definitely better than where it was at the start of Mk3." There are some outliers of course, the "PoM is OP holy shit" and the "PoM is the most hated faction by the devs" but overall most people I hear from are in the middle. The issue seems to be girded. I wonder why girded is so maligned... is it just because on paper it is useless, or is it due to extensive playtesting and use of the Champ + Pallies in CID games show that its not a worthy ability for the point cost? Really, PP can do whatever they want. Girded is a very fluffy rule (much like the oft-hated Lance) that is very much in line with the Order of the Wall's code to be...well, walls. The primary purpose of CID is not a forum where players can suggest changes- it is a forum that gives players the chance to run through test rules and talk about them, therefore guiding the development of a ruleset. This is often forgotten despite being repeated over and over again. As such, I find it strange when people get salty about "PP isn't listening to our suggestions!" when said suggestions were not asked for, and therefore will be ignored in favour of hard playtest data. In the end, one of the most common adages I've heard is that all the internet salt melts away once a player starts throwing dice around and moves models. Unless one deliberately brings the salt over, of course.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Sept 18, 2017 0:52:16 GMT
I don't necessarily think that whole salt melting thing applies in most situations I see saltiness all the time especially at 40K tournaments where I'm quietly playing in the background watching people get stomped by the new meta hottness. I defaniteley think protectorate as a faction is pretty good, but I also think there are other factions that shall not be named that get shiner toys than the rest of us. But I am also wearing protectorate/circle goggles so I'm sure that bias is shaping my opinion
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Sept 18, 2017 1:31:47 GMT
The tax bracket comparison isn't a good one for Protectorate, but here is another one.
Protectorate is like having to send your kid to college. You're too poor to be able to afford it outright, but not poor enough to qualify for financial aid. That's kinda where Protectorate is.
As for "girded on the Paladin". It's main problem is that it's a solution in want of a problem. We're not exactly dying to blasts left and right. And there are many things which can get around blast immunity(continuous effect AOEs, eleap, etc...). Our one infantry unit that sees common play that has armor low enough to worry about blasts(idrians) has a mini-feat for blast immunity. Knights Exemplar are high enough armor that blast damage is less worrying.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Sept 18, 2017 1:42:05 GMT
The other issue is trying to clump things around a paladin. Girded on the Champ himself is ok on the dudes in Faithful, since he can catch up to the dudes without giving up his survivabilty, but needing to clump dudes b2b with a small based model that either moves slowly or gets killed on the approach seems bad.
|
|