Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 18, 2017 14:43:52 GMT
[SNIP]
Because I think PP actually really cares about fluff. Like, allot. Maybe about as or more than mechanics. But they are bad at explaining themselves in text, or how to manifest their ideas into practice (Or when just interviewed on the fly without follow-up). Which when filtered through our very mechanics focused viewpoint, results in them looking like they both don't care about mechanics or Fluff. =p
Them caring about the fluff, background story, characters, and all of that as much as you say, if not more, makes sense since the game started out as a setting for a role-playing game. For Privateer Press the fluff is the thing that all of their products (Warmachine, Hordes, IKRPG, board games, fiction) are based upon. They have to evolve their background story and setting first, and then translate that into Warmahordes, because they want to make sure that the customers who buy all of their products are happy with what they are buying and keep buying more.
I have to agree regarding their communications - if theme armies are supposed to be so important you would think that they would do a little better job of communicating design intent and relationship to the background material than they have so far.
I also got the impression that PP moves much faster internally than what we see of them on the outside, they again just suck at communicating that. Or B can't communicate that because of PR safety. And in my opinion for good reason when we see them accidentally spill their beans without the better context they look like morons. I don't think they are flip flopping as much as accidentally spilling ideas that they have had for months.
Well, they have to move fast, because they have to evolve their fluff to give a basis for all of their products. Once they have done that they then need to translate it, as needed, into Warmahordes, the fiction, and the IKRPG. I think that back in Mk2 their product cycle was a lot slower because they only had to produce a new Warmahordes book ~ every 6 months. Now they are going to be putting actionable content into every issue of No Quarter Prime once every month or 2. If they have a system, and resources, to do it right it is going to evolve into a regular production system (as opposed to a series of high importance production cycles) that will constantly engage their customer base. Back in Mk2 with their big books, if one of the books was a stinker it could have driven off their customer base with too much time until their next book that *might* draw them back, wrecking their business. Now, if they have a bad month with No Quarter Prime the potential for PP losing their customer base is a lot smaller and they will be able to recover a lot quicker and easier.
In addition to them not communicating with us as much as we want them to do (I chose my words carefully on that point) they have to be very mindful of PR safety. If they say the *wrong thing* and it spreads on the Internet (like it will) they could open themselves up to a big problem from:
1) angering or confusing their customer base
2) legal attacks and lawsuits
3) giving away information that the competition (GW and all of the other game companies) could use against them.
I didn't ask every question, but I asked the best I could.
On Themes in general and The "Irregulars" theme force, and the Status of Mercs in general
Statements:
The Irregulars are supposed to be the Mercs Generic Theme
The Irregulars represent how Mercs have changed after the Cygnarian civil war and intensifying of conflicts.
Heavy Metal is Cygnars Generic theme (As an example)
He talked about how Longgunners as if they were in Heavy Metal already (And then mentioned they are probably gonna be added officially)
On Themes in general and The "Irregulars" theme force, and the Status of Mercs in general
Statements:
The Irregulars are supposed to be the Mercs Generic Theme
The Irregulars represent how Mercs have changed after the Cygnarian civil war and intensifying of conflicts.
Heavy Metal is Cygnars Generic theme (As an example)
He talked about how Longgunners as if they were in Heavy Metal already (And then mentioned they are probably gonna be added officially)
I can see how "The Irregulars" can be considered a general theme force, but the emphasis on warjacks and jack marshals seems odd and was definitely not supported by the Insider. If PP had made the Insider longer to not only give insight into in-game benefits but to also show how the rules relate to the fluff I think there would have been a lot less heart burn on these forums. Then again, a lot of us who regularly post here are probably a lot more involved and invested than a majority of Privateer Press' customer base.
Future theme forces that are about mixing other divisions of Infantry together in Armies are not out of the question if they made sense. Like Doom Reavers and Iron Fang Pikemen likely will never happen, but Greylords and Wintergaurds or Greylords and Manowars as a theme is not out of the question.
It's not out of the question, but I doubt it will happen because it doesn't make too much sense.
I think the biggest problem with the theme forces is that they are too restrictive in terms of the fluff and how an army should be run. The theme forces should focus on *major* facets of an army (Trenchers, Storm Knights, Gun Mages, Winter Guard, Iron Fangs, Man-O-War, Exemplars, Flame Guard, etc.) but also allow not just the warjacks but also the support elements that should be spread thinly across the whole army. Any Cygnar theme army should be allowed to have at least 1x Ranger unit and 1x Field Mechanic unit (for example), and any Khador unit should have access to at least 1x Greylord Ternion and 1x Battle Mechanik unit (for example), because these units are support units that should be almost universally available.
I think that the theme armies should be restructured a little so that a wider variety of units and solos, especially support units and solos, are allowed but at a reduced, or increased, Field Allowance as appropriate. So, for something like a Cygnar Ranger unit, which are not allowed in any theme army currently, they should be in every one, just maybe not at their FA: 2. I could see that there would be at most 1x unit available to be included in a Heavy Metal or Storm Division army (to represent scouts and pickets that any force with a warcaster in it would have). Since we seem to see the Tempest Gun mages acting like a bit of a special forces branch I could see they would warrant 3x units of Rangers.
Now the implications I got with the other details of the conversation that Im leaving out for simplicity was that we have been viewing theme forces kinda wrong, or how PP has been building them. To me PP seems to make a concept for a theme force FIRST, and then make mechanics second, in the frame of that themes exist to allow for a diversification of models made. To me it explains why some themes seem half finished whilst the others are already done. Why some factions get 12 free points whilst others can get 20.
I think that you are right, because Privateer Press is for the most part a bunch of gamers that are running a business that draws its intellectual property off of an RPG world. I think one of the factors that needs to be touched upon is what has been released over the last 10 years.
Take Cygnar: Storm Division is ~pretty much~ a finished theme because PP has already released a lot of Storm Division stuff over the years - it's a cool concept and their poster boy to date, Stryker (& his mentor Nemo), are associated with them. Sons of the Tempest is a stinker and not a finished theme because it has had little released for it. I think PP is done with Stryker being the poster boy and they are turning their attention to Caine being their next target of attention, what with all of the fiction surrounding him. Once they have written more fiction and have had a chance to explore the gun mages in thought and in fiction you will see them get the Trencher treatment.
The Trencher theme, had they released it early, would have been pretty close to being done because they had already released a lot of stuff for it. Instead of releasing an obvious theme early though, PP decided to make it the first theme to be given an expansion. It makes sense that they got the expansion that they did - the trenchers are Cygnar's basic army and needed to be fleshed out as an army should be. (I can see the same thing happening to the Winter Guard some time in the future.)
What we have been calling "Jack Themes" Will Called a "generic theme" because to him, it represent the "Generic" Force that a faction may send out against an opponent without a specific target in mind (The massive battle scenes of Fluff don't accurately represent this), a patrol force for example. And this again makes sense. Just the Iron Kingdoms are known for employing Warjacks and would likely employ the mobile tanks that are warjacks+Common stuff to quickly quell problems that may be in their nation. Remember that to us, we only witness Equal sized battles, when employing a larger force to quell a smaller insurrection with decisive force with minimal casualties is a strategy on its own, and thats easier to rally with just some coal in a burner and a warcaster as opposed to Infantry forces that require way more logistsics, and likely to take more casualties and less intimidating. This to me explains the Cryx "Jack Force" Despite it not being dependant on Jacks for free stuff. Its not a "Jack Force" its a GENERIC force from Cryx. Same for all the other "Jack" themes. And when thinking about it, it made sense in my mind of what a Faction would regularly deploy to deal with its own "Generic" issues and how each "Generic" theme changes depending on the internal faction logic.
You mentioning that the Long Gunners might get added to Heavy Metal, and the downgrade talk surrounding them during the Trencher theme CID, tells me that Long Gunners and Sword Knights are going to represent "Old Cygnar" and represent easily scraped together troops that will accompany warcasters and their warjacks on short notice. (Storm Knights, Tempest Gun mages, and Trenchers also seem to want to operate on their own.) In my opinion it would also go to making Heavy Metal a more viable theme that can more easily operate as a combined arms force.
If PP wants to have a "general" theme force that primarily focuses on warjacks then I think that at least one of the major facets of the army be allowed, but at a reduced FA. Like for Khador, not only should the "more rustic" forces be allowed, but also maybe a unit and a solo of Winter Guard -or- a unit and a solo of Iron Fangs -or- a unit and a solo of Greylords. Yes, you will have some overlap with with the other themes, but it will be more of a "general theme" and not a "warjack theme".
The Irregulars are meant to represent that with the intensification of warfare, lots of contrasting mercenary companies are really beginning to be found on the battlefield together for proxy battles. A merc company going against its "Foundation faction" is already possible, so mercs while having loyalties of kind, still take their own goals more importantly. Whilst Marrowans, Menothians, and Khadoran Assasins are not likely to chill out in the same clubhouse, they are likely to work for an employer together for a common goal. The more "Specialized" units ARE likely to hang out in their own clubhouses and are represented by the more specialized themes. Simply put the Iron Kingdoms have become evermore interconnected and less isolationist over the years. For mercs to just end up being jumbled together makes sense to me.
I agree, we have to remember that the Precursors, Kayazy, and Idrians are mercenaries first and foremost. While their primary interest *might* not be money (in the case of the Precursors), we shouldn't read to much into the Partisan rules. I don't think the partisan rules are an indicator of moral alignment so much as where their clubhouse sits. The Precursors can be found in a Mercenary army, but since they are out of Cygnar and made up of Cygnarans they so easily work for the Cygnaran army such that they get the partisan rule. The Kayazy can be found in a Mercenary army, but since they are out of Khador and made up of Khadorans they so easily work for the Khadoran army such that they get the partisan rule. The Idrians can be found in a Mercenary army, but since they are out of The Protectorate they so easily work for The Protectorate army such that they get the partisan rule.
After this train of thought, theme forces don't represent themes as much divisions that we are likely to see in the field.
Makes sense.