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Post by Aegis on Aug 18, 2017 2:45:16 GMT
Kayazy are the criminal underground. Sure, they'll fight for khador when it suits their interests, but they are not the khadoran state and as such have no particular interest in conquering llael unless they're profiting from it. Also, the resistance is getting incredibly desperate; there's definitely a place for the resistance to be working with kayazy against the protectorate or cryx. Playing the encroaching powers against each other is probably Llael's only option left. Particularly against protectorate, which has already converted a city and has attempted to straight-up invade others. Precursors/the morrowan church would fight alongside nearly anyone who would help them fight cryx or defend innocents. "Souls passing to urcaen normally" is their driving cause. They've certainly got moral disagreements with pirates and wouldn't go around stealing stuff with them, but they also vehemently disapprove of any model that has fire/acid/electroleap attacks which hinder the easy passage of the soul (Madhammer and DSM strike me as the non-animosity mercs they'd like least). The Sancteum only reluctantly got involved in the war with khador after a morrowan priest was murdered by a khadoran (menite?), and even then choose to help indirectly by sending blaize to hold the front against cryx so cygnar can focus more on khador. Blaize's cygnaran nationalism is uncommon in the church as they've got followers on both sides of the war. Oh, and the Morrowan church has two armies; there's also the semi-independent Order of Illumination which is dedicated to fighting infernals and has entirely different priorities/politics, which could easily receive the Golden Crucible treatment down the road. If there are particular combinations that are fluff-egregious, I'd like to see them solve that by increasing the use of tags like thamarite and the animosity rule. I don't really agree with some of your examples, but again that is not the point, I'm not interested into hearing inventive speculations to why unlikely allies should join. I'm interested into hearing why combinations a lot more likely, like the example of Iron Fangs and Doom Reavers, or even more evidently Rangers with pretty much any Cygnar theme shouldn't deserve to be played in theme, while combinations a lot more unlikely can.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 18, 2017 2:45:50 GMT
Precursors aren't really mercenaries anyway. They fight for specific causes I would imagine. And it looks like the have to errata longgunners into Heavy Metal coz come September longgunners will have no other theme they can squeeze into. The crusaders sacked a Christian city (many Christian cities, actually) on the way to Jerusalem in order to buy boats to transport them there. The venicians hired them with payment of boats if they attacked one of their nominal allies.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 18, 2017 2:49:54 GMT
Precursors aren't really mercenaries anyway. They fight for specific causes I would imagine. And it looks like the have to errata longgunners into Heavy Metal coz come September longgunners will have no other theme they can squeeze into. The crusaders sacked a Christian city (many Christian cities, actually) on the way to Jerusalem in order to buy boats to transport them there. The venicians hired them with payment of boats if they attacked one of their nominal allies. Aaaand... Real life Christian crusaders aren't Morrowan precursors? The Crusades were made for motivations a lot more terrain than religion, and the crusaders were mostly there more for interest than for faith. It's totally different from Precursors that live in a world where gods and saints walk earth and the rewards/threats of the afterlife are a sure and indisputable thing, instead of just something unproven that you have to accept with faith. That said, I continue to have the feeling to being pointing at the moon and everyone looks at the finger...
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 18, 2017 2:55:22 GMT
The crusaders sacked a Christian city (many Christian cities, actually) on the way to Jerusalem in order to buy boats to transport them there. The venicians hired them with payment of boats if they attacked one of their nominal allies. Aaaand... Real life Christian crusaders aren't Morrowan precursors? The Crusades were made for motivations a lot more terrain than religion, and the crusaders were mostly there more for interest than for faith. It's totally different from Precursors that live in a world where gods and saints walk earth and the rewards/threats of the afterlife are a sure and indisputable thing, instead of just something unproven that you have to accept with faith. That said, I continue to have the feeling to being pointing at the moon and everyone looks at the finger... Yeah, Im sure the precursor knights are fully virtuous just like the crusaders are portrayed as. Im just saying that holy religious types aren't squeaky clean and will fight for cash just like anyone else.
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Post by gobber on Aug 18, 2017 2:57:33 GMT
Aegis I don't really care what you're interested in nor was that specifically directed at you; there's a lot of talk of fluff in this thread and I enjoy chiming in on those conversations. I don't disagree there are fluff reasons why those would work together, which PP just confirmed they were open to. I think we might be reading too much weight on one line from Hungie, the main thing PP needs is more time and they're already being quite responsive by getting the baseline themes out quickly. There may be some difference between "a theme focused on iron fangs and doomreavers" and a theme army that allows both; it seems premature to be having this debate without knowing the resolution of mercs in themes and how that will be extended to options within factions (which is at the root of the question for the mercenary faction which they have been entirely mum about and didn't CID at all).
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 18, 2017 2:59:17 GMT
Im not seeing the Precursors as likely ransack a village or the like, but I can see them being hired for taking on Cryx or the legion or other evilish factions.
Them fighting against the other factions is "Every faction fights each other all the time because rules". I mean the crusaders can slaughter their own cygnarians in the name of Lael.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 18, 2017 4:50:35 GMT
Im not seeing the Precursors as likely ransack a village or the like, but I can see them being hired for taking on Cryx or the legion or other evilish factions. Them fighting against the other factions is "Every faction fights each other all the time because rules". I mean the crusaders can slaughter their own cygnarians in the name of Lael. Eh, I dunno. When your means of living is a sword and a shield and you start to get hungry, suddenly *everyone* looks like a sinner.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 18, 2017 5:36:45 GMT
Im not seeing the Precursors as likely ransack a village or the like, but I can see them being hired for taking on Cryx or the legion or other evilish factions. Them fighting against the other factions is "Every faction fights each other all the time because rules". I mean the crusaders can slaughter their own cygnarians in the name of Lael. Eh, I dunno. When your means of living is a sword and a shield and you start to get hungry, suddenly *everyone* looks like a sinner. That would be true if Precursors weren't official part of the Church of Morrow military and get regularly paid by it even in peace time. They are not sellswords, they are simply part of an indipendent military army (the church) that follows it's own goals outside national governaments jurisdiction (despite being closely tied with the Cygnar kingdom).
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 18, 2017 5:40:12 GMT
Except they v are pre cursor nights and can probably go to the nearest temple for a hot meal and a good sleep before they continue on their way. When your religion is the dominant you never fall on hard times.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Aug 18, 2017 6:22:23 GMT
Thank you for supplying some much needed clarification. However that really sounds like a lot of post-fact justifications to talk themselves out of the theme mess they have written themselves into. I'm very disappointed that only Mercs will be allowed to play mixed armies without penalty.
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Post by mydnight on Aug 18, 2017 6:41:56 GMT
Why are we arguing about precursors anyway? No one is going to be bringing them in their current form
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 18, 2017 7:47:24 GMT
Yeah... it kinda sounds to me like the OP just really enjoyed talking to Hungerford, and in that context, it all seemed to make sense. The phrase "maybe you had to be there" kind of suggests that.
If it only makes sense when you are talking to a personality with authority who is explaining it to you, then it sounds to me like it doesn't really make sense in the harsh light of day - it just temporarily feels like it does when you are being influenced by your emotions to want to think so.
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 18, 2017 10:24:03 GMT
Kayazy are the criminal underground. Sure, they'll fight for khador when it suits their interests, but they are not the khadoran state and as such have no particular interest in conquering llael unless they're profiting from it. Also, the resistance is getting incredibly desperate; there's definitely a place for the resistance to be working with kayazy against the protectorate or cryx. Playing the encroaching powers against each other is probably Llael's only option left. Particularly against protectorate, which has already converted a city and has attempted to straight-up invade others. Honestly, I'd just assume in that case that they're not Kayazy assassins, but Resistance fighters with a "knife people in dark alleys" skill set.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 18, 2017 11:13:37 GMT
Eh, I dunno. When your means of living is a sword and a shield and you start to get hungry, suddenly *everyone* looks like a sinner. That would be true if Precursors weren't official part of the Church of Morrow military and get regularly paid by it even in peace time. They are not sellswords, they are simply part of an indipendent military army (the church) that follows it's own goals outside national governaments jurisdiction (despite being closely tied with the Cygnar kingdom). Churches are examples of virtue... especially when bearing arms.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 18, 2017 12:05:56 GMT
The point is that PP wants themes out there, with all models available in one theme at least, and asap. And that's fine as far as I'm concerned, I don't particularly need a fluff justification for themes (I do like fluff driving mechanics, but whatever: fluff is something players can integrate themselves). I just find it annoying if someone pretends fluff is given more than a perfunctory consideration nowadays. I'm sure PP prefers to stay fluffy when the stars align, but all evidence suggests they're not going out of their way for it.
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