wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 18, 2017 12:10:31 GMT
It seems like when you talk to them in person though, they can make it seem really convincing that everything is based on fluff and the mechanics come second.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 12:12:12 GMT
It seems like when you talk to them in person though, they can make it seem really convincing that everything is based on fluff and the mechanics come second. Someone ask them in person "what's the fluff justification for Ogrun Bokur not in the irregulars"... they won't have one, it's total bullshit.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 18, 2017 12:19:26 GMT
It seems like when you talk to them in person though, they can make it seem really convincing that everything is based on fluff and the mechanics come second. Someone ask them in person "what's the fluff justification for Ogrun Bokur not in the irregulars"... they won't have one, it's total bullshit. I honestly can't think of any reason for that. Fluff or mechanical.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 12:28:47 GMT
Someone ask them in person "what's the fluff justification for Ogrun Bokur not in the irregulars"... they won't have one, it's total bullshit. I honestly can't think of any reason for that. Fluff or mechanical. I know. The most janky thing i could possibly concoct is you male your jack marshal your client... keep him safe on the approach, charge the bokur into something then it gives your jack its flank bonus. That is no mechanical reason to exlude them, and fluff wise it's still bullshit.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 18, 2017 13:59:54 GMT
I'm confused. People keep talking about not being able to take some models in Irregulars but the Insider says "The Irregulars allows you to take any Mercenary warcaster and non-character warjacks as well as all Mercenary units and Mercenary character solos." Where exactly did anyone say you can't take the Bokur?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 18, 2017 14:07:59 GMT
I'm confused. People keep talking about not being able to take some models in Irregulars but the Insider says "The Irregulars allows you to take any Mercenary warcaster and non-character warjacks as well as all Mercenary units and Mercenary character solos." Where exactly did anyone say you can't take the Bokur? Bokur is a non-character solo. One of very few such merc solos.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 14:20:59 GMT
I'm confused. People keep talking about not being able to take some models in Irregulars but the Insider says "The Irregulars allows you to take any Mercenary warcaster and non-character warjacks as well as all Mercenary units and Mercenary character solos." Where exactly did anyone say you can't take the Bokur? Bokur is a non-character solo. One of very few such merc solos. Bokur is one of 2 models not in the theme force "intentionally"... Make him a character for all I care, or give me a character solo that's a shield guard. I only want to bring one "free" solo that will stop eiryss, Hypnos, Moros, etc from shooting me. I don't think that's so unreasonable.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 18, 2017 14:22:12 GMT
Bokur is a non-character solo. One of very few such merc solos. Bokur is one of 2 models not in the theme force "intentionally"... Make him a character for all I care, or give me a character solo that's a shield guard. I only want to bring one "free" solo that will stop eiryss, Hypnos, Moros, etc from shooting me. I don't think that's so unreasonable. Do we know for certain that non-character solos aren't allowed or are we conjecturing based on Will saying character solos in the Insider? I'm not trying to antagonize or anything I just honestly don't know. I had assumed the theme list included everything until I saw this thread today.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 18, 2017 14:26:32 GMT
Do we know for certain that non-character solos aren't allowed or are we conjecturing based on Will saying character solos in the Insider? I'm not trying to antagonize or anything I just honestly don't know. I had assumed the theme list included everything until I saw this thread today. He didn't specifically say they're not allowed, but he stressed on the character part twice, so it's heavily implied. Also not that the character distinction is not there for the unit part.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 14:26:57 GMT
Bokur is one of 2 models not in the theme force "intentionally"... Make him a character for all I care, or give me a character solo that's a shield guard. I only want to bring one "free" solo that will stop eiryss, Hypnos, Moros, etc from shooting me. I don't think that's so unreasonable. Do we know for certain that non-character solos aren't allowed or are we conjecturing based on Will saying character solos in the Insider? I'm not trying to antagonize or anything I just honestly don't know. I had assumed the theme list included everything until I saw this thread today. Here is what they had to say when I asked on facebook:
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 18, 2017 14:28:45 GMT
Do we know for certain that non-character solos aren't allowed or are we conjecturing based on Will saying character solos in the Insider? I'm not trying to antagonize or anything I just honestly don't know. I had assumed the theme list included everything until I saw this thread today. He didn't specifically say they're not allowed, but he stressed on the character part twice, so it's heavily implied. Also not that the character distinction is not there for the unit part. Fair enough. I guess I'd be inclined to wait and see; it would seem very odd to me if that was the route they chose but you're write about the wording. As I don't play the faction it certainly doesn't hit me as hard so I'll avoid any further commentary. Thanks for the info. Edit: Okay after Iso's post while I was writing this that is super weird and I can definitely see why it would be annoying to Merc players. I'll bow out of the Irregular's discussion now.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 18, 2017 14:29:23 GMT
Relevant quote: "The choice to make it characters only is intentional". Which presumably means that the bokur being left out is intentional. Why this is the intention we can only speculate.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 18, 2017 14:32:42 GMT
Bokur is a non-character solo. One of very few such merc solos. Bokur is one of 2 models not in the theme force "intentionally"... Make him a character for all I care, or give me a character solo that's a shield guard. I only want to bring one "free" solo that will stop eiryss, Hypnos, Moros, etc from shooting me. I don't think that's so unreasonable. Sure. Having literally everything in your faction available in one theme is totally not unreasonable.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 18, 2017 14:32:46 GMT
Relevant quote: "The choice to make it characters only is intentional". Which presumably means that the bokur being left out is intentional. Why this is the intention we can only speculate. In the insider they specifically included the non character gobber tinker but did not include the bokur. I can totally understand the "future proofing" the theme for whatever the new non character spammable solo that could cause issues... but is letting us take a 5 point ( or free) FA:2 shield guard solo too much to ask??
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 18, 2017 14:40:58 GMT
Granted it was like 3 years ago but I remember going to a design panel at L&L 14 with Shick and DC and they said a lot of similar stuff as far as what they called Top-Down design. It does seem that they generally do want models to come from an interesting conceptual/fluffly place and make rules that fit that idea; you can see that in some of the CID discussions where they don't want to give out rules that would be a good fit but break the theme of the model.
Personally I'm okay with this as long as it doesn't end up with say Old Witch 2/3 being horrendously overpowered because "Well in the fluff she's an immortal demi-god so obviously she's better than any human warcaster". On the other hand it can definitely be frustrating, such as with the infamous Retribution buggabo of Destors who they apparently demand have the Lance rule even though removing it would fix a ton of their problems. Top-down design does result in some really really cool models though, like Haley3, the Defiers (say what you will about the fluff itself, their kits are amazingly well-tied to their themes), Harbinger, Rasheth, the list goes on. I've been a huge fan of the Trencher and Northkin model lines because they're so well done with their respective ideas.
I think what made a lot of the late-MkII (think like FoW: CoC through Reckoning) really good was you had those fluff-driven decisions but then you had DC there to make a lot of the math and mechanics work well. With DC gone I think they brought in Pagani to kind of do the same thing but it remains to be seen if he can match up.*
My hope is that with CID they can continue to come up with cool, fluff-first models and let the community help get their rules in the right place.
*This is not meant as a slight against Pagani, it's just not been that long and we haven't yet seen that many models he had a strong hand in.
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