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Post by macdaddy on Aug 22, 2017 14:31:01 GMT
unmitigated wow you must have put a lot of work into that analysis. Thanks for putting that out there!
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Post by neutralyze on Aug 22, 2017 15:22:08 GMT
That could also be taken as "Europe has never been able to find the answers to Cygnar and Cryx dominating their meta" or "Europe's best players all play Cygnar and their skill makes them perform well" Only if you were in deep denial.
Despite only a small number of foreign players coming over for Lock n Load and Warmachine Weekends they have done phenomenally well.
Lock N Load 2017: Pat Dunsford wins event. Aaron Wales loses final WMW 2016: Chris Davies (Wins of both masters and LCQ) Lock N Load 2015 Masters: Ben Leeper loses in Final Lock N Load 2015 IG: Trent Denison loses in the final WMW 2014 IG: Martin Hornacek wins event Lock N Load 2014 IG: Trent Denison loses in the final Lock N Load 2014 Masters: James Moorhouse wins event
Consider how few non NA players attend these events and consider how well they've done overall. Yes many of the people that would go on such a trip are the strongest players, but we all generally agree that to win any event you need a but of luck you wouldn't expect such a strong showing unless there was clearly some skill discrepancy.
But this is all dick waving. I don't want this turned into "My Meta is better than your meta" especially as Australia is clearly stronger than either. All I would ask is that you at least entertain the idea that Cygnar are a very real problem and have been for a year now. If you think it's just EU struggling to find an answer that NA has found, I ask why no one could stop Pat Dunsford coming over and winning Lock N Load.
I'll chime in here a bit. We can go back to 20-3 for the first WTC event. Team USA came over to the first WTC and placed 2nd when everyone there thought we had no chance. Then you fail to mention hat team USA comes to the WTC next year, in 2014 and wins the WTC on a world platform. As for IG this year, Pat played very well in every game I watched him play. He only lost masters because in his 3rd or 4th round he timed out while up on scenario and attrition vs ghost fleet. I played Pat 2nd round of IG at LnL. He played well and deserved to win the event. I lost 4-5 on scenario that could of went either way on Fyanna's feat turn.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 22, 2017 16:08:27 GMT
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Post by unmitigated on Aug 22, 2017 16:43:45 GMT
hoo-raccoon-doggie. This is great. Now I just have to figure out how to parse team entries well...
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Post by unmitigated on Aug 22, 2017 18:30:58 GMT
hoo-raccoon-doggie. This is great. Now I just have to figure out how to parse team entries well... Not sure if this is in addition to or duplicate to the DGI data. Will have to do some analysis. Ok, bit more data incoming, from that dump above: Team Data: Faction - Count - AveragePlace - TotalPlayers Circle - 15 - 2.67 - 15 Convergence - 3 - 4.33 - 3 Cryx - 12 - 2.58 - 13 Cygnar - 17 - 2.59 - 21 Grymkin - 1 - 5.00 - 1 Khador - 11 - 3.55 - 12 Legion - 7 - 3.86 - 7 Mercenaries - 6 - 3.33 - 6 Minions - 3 - 2.67 - 3 Protectorate - 9 - 3.56 - 9 Retribution - 11 - 2.91 - 12 Skorne - 10 - 3.00 - 12 Trollbloods - 3 - 5.33 - 3 Solo data: Errata - January/Skorne Faction - Finishes - AveragePlace Circle - 10 - 2.30 Protectorate - 5 - 3.40 Cygnar - 4 - 1.75 Khador - 3 - 2.67 Legion - 2 - 1.50 Mercenaries - 2 - 2.00 Skorne - 2 - 2.00 Retribution - 2 - 2.50 Trollbloods - 2 - 2.50 Cryx - 2 - 4.00 Convergence - 1 - 2.00 Errata - February/Dynamic Nerf Faction - Finishes - AveragePlace Cygnar - 27 - 2.81 Legion - 24 - 3.38 Mercenaries - 14 - 3.50 Circle - 11 - 3.18 Cryx - 10 - 2.90 Khador - 9 - 4.00 Convergence - 7 - 3.00 Protectorate - 7 - 4.29 Retribution - 6 - 3.00 Trollbloods - 6 - 3.83 Skorne - 5 - 2.00 Minions - 3 - 4.00 Menoth - 1 - 5.00 Errata - June - Dynamic Update Faction - Finishes - AveragePlace Cryx - 7 - 1.86 Cygnar - 4 - 2.50 Khador - 3 - 2.33 Legion - 2 - 3.50 Protectorate - 1 - 1.00 Trollbloods - 1 - 1.00 Mercenaries - 1 - 2.00 Retribution - 1 - 4.00 Errata - SR2017 Faction - Finishes - AveragePlace Cryx - 7 - 3.43 Cygnar - 5 - 2.40 Convergence - 4 - 2.25 Grymkin - 4 - 3.25 Legion - 3 - 2.33 Protectorate - 3 - 3.67 Khador - 2 - 3.50 Mercenaries - 2 - 4.50 Circle - 1 - 4.00 Retribution - 1 - 4.00
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Post by unmitigated on Aug 22, 2017 20:37:35 GMT
Attached is the final, deduplicated version of the DGI data plus Jay's data. I'll do a more indepth analysis soon. Initial queries against it strongly suggest it's the same as without jay's data. Attachments:dataparse.xlsx (38.79 KB)
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Post by jisidro on Aug 23, 2017 8:24:20 GMT
My file also has the DGI stuff if it was the only source I could find on that particular tournament.
Also, I try to get info on all the players down to X-1, ie, undefeated and all those that only lost 1 round.
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Post by skathrex on Aug 23, 2017 12:17:38 GMT
I agree. Team tournaments aren't the best to evaluate factions, since the matchup mechanicks make possible to play some skewed lists or warcasters that wouldn't perform well in a normal steamroller, and team decisions affect the outcome too much (if a player is the "sacrifical token", his faction could seem a lot worse than it actually is). One of the last team tournaments has seen a team with 3 Skorne players winning it. That should hint that team tournaments work different from normal tournament, and aren't an accurate source to discuss about normal games. The assumption is wrong. I know where it comes from since Skorne is not seen as a good faction most everwhere else, but 2 of those 3 Skorne players played the same lists in the finals of a major tournament. Its just the players that are that good and the dominance of Skorne in that meta.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 23, 2017 12:49:29 GMT
I agree. Team tournaments aren't the best to evaluate factions, since the matchup mechanicks make possible to play some skewed lists or warcasters that wouldn't perform well in a normal steamroller, and team decisions affect the outcome too much (if a player is the "sacrifical token", his faction could seem a lot worse than it actually is). One of the last team tournaments has seen a team with 3 Skorne players winning it. That should hint that team tournaments work different from normal tournament, and aren't an accurate source to discuss about normal games. The assumption is wrong. I know where it comes from since Skorne is not seen as a good faction most everwhere else, but 2 of those 3 Skorne players played the same lists in the finals of a major tournament. Its just the players that are that good and the dominance of Skorne in that meta. Indeed. Also, the three-team events have pairing mechanics that don't really allow players to dodge their bad matchups. With five-team events that's a thing, but most non-WTC team events have teams of three. List pairs for those have to be good for the entire field and it's really hard to deliberately throw someone under the bus for a tactical advantage, so data from those events is much more useful than the WTC's (even if not quite as good as solo events'), particularly when it comes to what gets played.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 23, 2017 14:29:24 GMT
The assumption is wrong. I know where it comes from since Skorne is not seen as a good faction most everwhere else, but 2 of those 3 Skorne players played the same lists in the finals of a major tournament. Its just the players that are that good and the dominance of Skorne in that meta. Indeed. Also, the three-team events have pairing mechanics that don't really allow players to dodge their bad matchups. With five-team events that's a thing, but most non-WTC team events have teams of three. List pairs for those have to be good for the entire field and it's really hard to deliberately throw someone under the bus for a tactical advantage, so data from those events is much more useful than the WTC's (even if not quite as good as solo events'), particularly when it comes to what gets played. The tournament I was talking about was ETC masters, that has teams of 5 members, 3 of whom were Skorne.
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Post by skathrex on Aug 23, 2017 20:29:39 GMT
Indeed. Also, the three-team events have pairing mechanics that don't really allow players to dodge their bad matchups. With five-team events that's a thing, but most non-WTC team events have teams of three. List pairs for those have to be good for the entire field and it's really hard to deliberately throw someone under the bus for a tactical advantage, so data from those events is much more useful than the WTC's (even if not quite as good as solo events'), particularly when it comes to what gets played. The tournament I was talking about was ETC masters, that has teams of 5 members, 3 of whom were Skorne. I know. that team was german, and 2 of those players played in the "nordisch Masters" final. Both played similar Skorne lists. The tournament had 64 players.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 23, 2017 21:57:38 GMT
America has always been behind the curve compared to the UK and Europe when it comes to competitive play, especially with regards to Cygnar. Lets see if they do any better at the WTC this year, or whether they are always going to be 6 months behind us. #shotsfired I know you are just trying to troll, but I'll bite. If that is your method for evaluating global competitiveness, is UK/Europe 6 months behind Australia then? *laughs in Australian*
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 24, 2017 7:24:50 GMT
The tournament I was talking about was ETC masters, that has teams of 5 members, 3 of whom were Skorne. I know. that team was german, and 2 of those players played in the "nordisch Masters" final. Both played similar Skorne lists. The tournament had 64 players. Robin was once given a Skorne army on a whim at the Belgian Masters, he had played Skorne 2 or 3 times before that. He got second place, pretty sure he lost the final against another German player. Those Germans are crazy
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Post by flamigant on Aug 24, 2017 8:06:31 GMT
I know. that team was german, and 2 of those players played in the "nordisch Masters" final. Both played similar Skorne lists. The tournament had 64 players. Robin was once given a Skorne army on a whim at the Belgian Masters, he had played Skorne 2 or 3 times before that. He got second place, pretty sure he lost the final against another German player. Those Germans are crazy I can attest to this fact because I was also there. He forgot his army somehow and someone borrowed him his Skorne. He lost in the finals against another German. This was MK2 btw.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 24, 2017 8:18:07 GMT
Robin was once given a Skorne army on a whim at the Belgian Masters, he had played Skorne 2 or 3 times before that. He got second place, pretty sure he lost the final against another German player. Those Germans are crazy I can attest to this fact because I was also there. He forgot his army somehow and someone borrowed him his Skorne. He lost in the finals against another German. This was MK2 btw. He didn't forget his army that time. He had forgotten it the year before (don't ask) and then was borrowed Cryx and won the tournament, so as compensation he was told he had to play a random army that year. He knew he would have to play Skorne on the day of the tournament, though he did get the courtesy of being allowed to make his own lists. I'm pretty sure it was already MK3, just after or just before the Skorne errata (think just before). EDIT: it was definitely MK3, because the last 2 editions of the Belgian Masters were MK3.
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