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Post by pangurban on Aug 18, 2017 12:49:12 GMT
I think the rationale behind Gatorman having 5 wounds normally, and 8 wounds in theme is that PP do not want Gators pretty much replacing native faction infantry, from my experience of MK2, Skorne in particular used Gators prolifically over their own infantry a lot of the time (barring Fist of Halak).
I can appreciate that rationale, but it seems like it is something that should apply to *all* merc and minion models then, not just one. If Farrow Brigands can have the same base stats in and out of theme and in both minion and faction armies, and be OK, then it seems weird that Gatormen, as the only unit in the whole game, require different base stats in and out of theme, in minion and faction armies. Why? Arcane Tempest Gun Mages gain CRA in Sons of the Tempest. Why? It's just a theme benefit is all.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 18, 2017 13:22:50 GMT
I think the rationale behind Gatorman having 5 wounds normally, and 8 wounds in theme is that PP do not want Gators pretty much replacing native faction infantry, from my experience of MK2, Skorne in particular used Gators prolifically over their own infantry a lot of the time (barring Fist of Halak).
I can appreciate that rationale, but it seems like it is something that should apply to *all* merc and minion models then, not just one. If Farrow Brigands can have the same base stats in and out of theme and in both minion and faction armies, and be OK, then it seems weird that Gatormen, as the only unit in the whole game, require different base stats in and out of theme, in minion and faction armies. Why? Because of the "you invalidated my purchases" argument. Some people had multiple units of posse. With the change going into MK3 no one was playing any posse hardly. Thus they (consumers) got mad. So instead of making the posse flat out more powerful and once again a better option than other faction's heavy infantry, the made it restricted to gator theme lists. I know Circle never needed skin walkers since posse was just better. MK3 changed that and I'm sure they want to keep it that way.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 18, 2017 14:35:15 GMT
Yeah but... it still doesn't make sense. Saying that Gatormen should have 5 health in faction armies and 8 health in gator armies suggests that for game balance overall, minions in general should be weaker in faction armies and stronger in minion armies (so they are worthwhile in minion armies but don't overshadow faction models). But only Gatormen have a rule like that. Why are they different than all other minion models? Argh.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 18, 2017 15:52:04 GMT
Yeah but... it still doesn't make sense. Saying that Gatormen should have 5 health in faction armies and 8 health in gator armies suggests that for game balance overall, minions in general should be weaker in faction armies and stronger in minion armies (so they are worthwhile in minion armies but don't overshadow faction models). But only Gatormen have a rule like that. Why are they different than all other minion models? Argh. But they're not. In the Thornfall Alliance theme Commandos get Ambush, thus making them better than in other factions. You can argue if it's a good/as good as giving Gators 3 more boxes but it's effectively the same idea: Minion models are better in Minions. Edit: Not to mention we will almost certainly be seeing more Minion theme forces that gives other models/units new rules.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 18, 2017 16:19:00 GMT
So i talked with my friend and we both agreed with the conclusion that most of the time before theme lists existed people felt like they didn't have enough points to include all the solos they wanted. The rain for that is two fold. 1 i think solos in general are too expensive. And dint perform as well as a jack or unit per point. 2 most people are idiots when building lists and dint plan for solos when list building. It seems to us that most people don't plan for soles unless they are really crouch to the list and then just use their left over points to fill in the gaps with solos. I think these two factors together contribute to the whole why people like the free solo benefit on themes even though it's bad for the game. It encourages behavior that people were already doing and most solos are too expensive anyways
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 18, 2017 16:35:31 GMT
So i talked with my friend and we both agreed with the conclusion that most of the time before theme lists existed people felt like they didn't have enough points to include all the solos they wanted. The rain for that is two fold. 1 i think solos in general are too expensive. And dint perform as well as a jack or unit per point. 2 most people are idiots when building lists and dint plan for solos when list building. It seems to us that most people don't plan for soles unless they are really crouch to the list and then just use their left over points to fill in the gaps with solos. I think these two factors together contribute to the whole why people like the free solo benefit on themes even though it's bad for the game. It encourages behavior that people were already doing and most solos are too expensive anyways You had a compelling argument until the bolded part. Don't talk like your opinion is objective fact please.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 18, 2017 16:39:54 GMT
So i talked with my friend and we both agreed with the conclusion that most of the time before theme lists existed people felt like they didn't have enough points to include all the solos they wanted. The rain for that is two fold. 1 i think solos in general are too expensive. And dint perform as well as a jack or unit per point. 2 most people are idiots when building lists and dint plan for solos when list building. It seems to us that most people don't plan for soles unless they are really crouch to the list and then just use their left over points to fill in the gaps with solos. I think these two factors together contribute to the whole why people like the free solo benefit on themes even though it's bad for the game. It encourages behavior that people were already doing and most solos are too expensive anyways You had a compelling argument until the bolded part. Don't talk like your opinion is objective fact please. Yes i agree it is my opinion but was in a hurry when i was typing. Can we agree were all on the same page about it being an opinion. The future will tell whether or not I'm right Ps. I did start the sentence with i think. I assumed that covered the entirety of it
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Post by pangurban on Aug 18, 2017 21:36:17 GMT
Yeah but... it still doesn't make sense. Saying that Gatormen should have 5 health in faction armies and 8 health in gator armies suggests that for game balance overall, minions in general should be weaker in faction armies and stronger in minion armies (so they are worthwhile in minion armies but don't overshadow faction models). But only Gatormen have a rule like that. Why are they different than all other minion models? Argh. Gatormen don't get 5 extra health in Gatormen armies. They get 5 extra health in one specific theme. It's the only theme they can go in right now, but still: they only get it in one theme, not in all minions lists. It's a theme benefit, not a benefit for staying out of other factions.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 18, 2017 21:40:15 GMT
I guess number of hit points just seems like such an integral part of a model that to me it seems inappropriate as just a casual theme force benefit, and it speaks more to a design issue with the models themselves. But alright, I guess I can just look at it differently. Gatormen just get a small boost as a reward for restricting your list through the theme. Fine.
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Post by flamigant on Aug 19, 2017 8:42:46 GMT
Changing the rules to 5 points free per 20 or 25 points of... would be better.
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