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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 17, 2017 13:40:00 GMT
But all your arguments are predicated on playing non-theme vs theme, which apparently is not PP'S goal. Theme vs. theme sidesteps the problems you set out, the games are fair because everyone has access to free models. Only when you want a specific combo that's not in a theme do problems arise. Because that's how the game works. It's how it was written and, I can only assume, intended. Whether themes are PP's ideal or not. The game is structured to be able to played in theme or not by choice. No matter how many specific/restricted themes they release, If I can't take model X and Y with Caster Z, and that how I want to play caster Z then I am forced to play out of theme and am severely penalized for my choice on how I play the game that was written for me to play it in that way in the first place. [/runonsentence] So yeah if they made a generic "If you play <faction> and take ?points of <model> get ? number of free models" it could solve the intrinsic flaw they brought into the game with the stupid rule. OR! they could just remove that BS rule and increase the base point allotment for the entire game so that everyone is playing the same bloody game.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 17, 2017 13:42:35 GMT
But it is way more difficult to do that. Take the new Gun Mage Lt we are getting on december as an example... Say that PP wanted to make it very good to help SoT. If free point didn't exist, he could be a 6-7 points solo with very powerful abilities, while now his cost will never matter, since every time we are going to use him is in SoT as free solo, so his point cost are not a balancing factor anymore. So he will be balanced by his rules relative to the other free options in Sons of the Tempest, PP can compare him to the GMCA, Marksman and Gun Mage UA, and decide whether his rules and abilities are appropriate, and whether he is a compelling option compared to his competition in that theme. I don't see how balancing a model like that is an issue Example: Yuri the Axe is basically an upgraded Man Hunter. He is just better than Man Hunters, and it is fine since he is a veteran legendary man hunter. Why should a Khador player ever want to take a normal man hunter, if the points become irrilevant? Points are a crucial balancing factor. Sometimes you want to make something that is just better than another option rule-wise, but you balance it making it cost more. If you then let the models be taken for free, you remove that balancing factor, making less powerful models obsolete.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 17, 2017 13:48:10 GMT
But it is way more difficult to do that. Take the new Gun Mage Lt we are getting on december as an example... Say that PP wanted to make it very good to help SoT. If free point didn't exist, he could be a 6-7 points solo with very powerful abilities, while now his cost will never matter, since every time we are going to use him is in SoT as free solo, so his point cost are not a balancing factor anymore. So he will be balanced by his rules relative to the other free options in Sons of the Tempest, PP can compare him to the GMCA, Marksman and Gun Mage UA, and decide whether his rules and abilities are appropriate, and whether he is a compelling option compared to his competition in that theme. I don't see how balancing a model like that is an issue Just think of a Reeve Lt and balance him against the current reeve hunter (ability and point-wise) and then compare him to Gun Mage Lt balanced against the GMCA and CA. The baseline is not the same, at all.
Sorry about the inherent jab at Cygnar... But comparing within themes (and within faction) just makes the rich, richer and keeps the poor, poor. Models need to make sense point-wise (at least!) across the whole game.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 13:49:40 GMT
So he will be balanced by his rules relative to the other free options in Sons of the Tempest, PP can compare him to the GMCA, Marksman and Gun Mage UA, and decide whether his rules and abilities are appropriate, and whether he is a compelling option compared to his competition in that theme. I don't see how balancing a model like that is an issue Example: Yuri the Axe is basically an upgraded Man Hunter. He is just better than Man Hunters, and it is fine since he is a veteran legendary man hunter. Why should a Khador player ever want to take a normal man hunter, if the points become irrilevant? Points are a crucial balancing factor. Sometimes you want to make something that is just better than another option rule-wise, but you balance it making it cost more. If you then let the models be taken for free, you remove that balancing factor, making less powerful models obsolete. It is true that you will always take Yuri over a Manhunter, or the Hellslinger over a Pistol Wraith, but that does not mean the Manhunter and Pistol Wraith are obsolete, all it means is they may fill the 2nd or 3rd free slot rather than the 1st, and yes you might not see them in every list, but as long as there are some incarnations of the theme force where you take them alongside Yuri/Hellslinger, then I don't see a problem with that
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Post by Aegis on Aug 17, 2017 14:00:26 GMT
Example: Yuri the Axe is basically an upgraded Man Hunter. He is just better than Man Hunters, and it is fine since he is a veteran legendary man hunter. Why should a Khador player ever want to take a normal man hunter, if the points become irrilevant? Points are a crucial balancing factor. Sometimes you want to make something that is just better than another option rule-wise, but you balance it making it cost more. If you then let the models be taken for free, you remove that balancing factor, making less powerful models obsolete. It is true that you will always take Yuri over a Manhunter, or the Hellslinger over a Pistol Wraith, but that does not mean the Manhunter and Pistol Wraith are obsolete, all it means is they may fill the 2nd or 3rd free slot rather than the 1st, and yes you might not see them in every list, but as long as there are some incarnations of the theme force where you take them alongside Yuri/Hellslinger, then I don't see a problem with that Sure, you can theorically, but actually often you don't need 3 melee combat solos. Also, given the option to get free solos, you are likely to use those slot taking the most expensive (and so powerful) solos you have into the theme, practically making those less powerful solos never see play. It's not a catastrofic failure in balance, but it still makes balancing both themes and single models harder (consider that the same model can be in multiple themes), and in general ankward. When trolls got their Squire-like attachment in the last CID, some people pointed out that he did too much for 4 points, and that being about on the same power level of Squire it should cost 5. The reply was "who cares? You are getting it for free anyway...". Again, not a game-breaking unbalance, but why remove a very handy and useful balancing factor like point cost, if you can manage themes in another, better, way? You could even give out free points without giving out "free slots" pretty easily.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 14:08:27 GMT
It is true that you will always take Yuri over a Manhunter, or the Hellslinger over a Pistol Wraith, but that does not mean the Manhunter and Pistol Wraith are obsolete, all it means is they may fill the 2nd or 3rd free slot rather than the 1st, and yes you might not see them in every list, but as long as there are some incarnations of the theme force where you take them alongside Yuri/Hellslinger, then I don't see a problem with that Sure, you can theorically, but actually often you don't need 3 melee combat solos. Also, given the option to get free solos, you are likely to use those slot taking the most expensive (and so powerful) solos you have into the theme, practically making those less powerful solos never see play. It's not a catastrofic failure in balance, but it still makes balancing both themes and single models harder (consider that the same model can be in multiple themes), and in general ankward. When trolls got their Squire-like attachment in the last CID, some people pointed out that he did too much for 4 points, and that being about on the same power level of Squire it should cost 5. The reply was "who cares? You are getting it for free anyway...". Again, not a game-breaking unbalance, but why remove a very handy and useful balancing factor like point cost, if you can manage themes in another, better, way? You could even give out free points without giving out "free slots" pretty easily. I agree that it is not game-breaking unbalance, and I do agree that a traditional points based way of balancing things is a very good way to make a game.
However PP have chosen the route they have with themes for a very good reason (mainly faction bloat), and free solos is a small price to pay for something that increases the longevity of this game, if it were not for themes this game would collapse under its own weight
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 17, 2017 14:13:59 GMT
When trolls got their Squire-like attachment in the last CID, some people pointed out that he did too much for 4 points, and that being about on the same power level of Squire it should cost 5. The reply was "who cares? You are getting it for free anyway...". Again, not a game-breaking unbalance, but why remove a very handy and useful balancing factor like point cost, if you can manage themes in another, better, way? You could even give out free points without giving out "free slots" pretty easily. Note that they do actually still care about point cost, because they did up the points cost of the Runebearer to 5, in the Bane CID they also discounted Tartarus to 6 instead of his previous cost of 8, even though he is highly unlikely to be taken outside the Dark Host theme.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 17, 2017 14:17:51 GMT
Given that Yuri can't be taken for free and the manhunter can in Jaws of the Wolf, that's maybe not a great example. And there are definitely times to take a manhunter over Yuri if they were both free! Vlad2 springs to mind immediately, as does the fact that a manhunter hits harder against single targets compared to Yuri.
The Khador themes are actually done well with regards to the amount of free points available. Some other factions (Ret and Legion mostly I think?) could do with some similar restrictions to limit free points more reasonably.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 17, 2017 15:40:01 GMT
I think free points is fine, but the amount of free points should be roughly equal across all themes that give it. Some themes can get 20+ free points. Others can barely manage 15. And then there is the faction difference. 15 free points of support solos is not the same as 15 free points of combat solos.
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Post by vakruz on Aug 17, 2017 16:23:10 GMT
I'll throw this out here: nobody will prolly care, or not believe me, or call me stupid, but I don't really care. Being forced to play in a theme, which is both restrictive, and none of the themes seem to be super balanced to me, is what is killing my meta. The killer to most of my locals, is the whole free point thing. Some get too many free points, some get none, some of the themes free models are quite garbage for what they can take. Some of my peeps don't want to play ultra competitive anymore, and some of the people we travel to play with abuse it and make it not fun. But then again, I'm just a filthy casual who is trying to avoid tournament play
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 17, 2017 16:27:29 GMT
Points are a crucial balancing factor. Sometimes you want to make something that is just better than another option rule-wise, but you balance it making it cost more. If you then let the models be taken for free, you remove that balancing factor, making less powerful models obsolete. Not having points is certainly a completely different type of game design. Arena Rex is an example of a miniatures game with no points, but that just has slots instead. You pick five fighters, I pick five fighters, we play. The idea is that all the fighters are designed to be balanced against each other 1:1. Blood Bowl used to be similar back before 3rd edition. Instead of buying individual players with points/gold, you just had a squad of 16 players, and the filling of those slots was semi-standardised. Both AR and BB had the idea that if you want to field big monsters, those just take up more than one slot. Which PP could in theory do too. If they want to keep going down this "solo slot" rule, where you fill slots instead of spend points, then especially powerful solos (like the minion lesser warlocks for example) could take up more than one slot. So, say, you can take three normal solos, or WE&SJ, and the latter would take up all three of your empty slots. But... why do that when you have points in the game already? So I agree that having normal points, but in certain conditions ignoring them and replacing them with a different points scale (free solo slots), seems like a weird thing to do.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 17, 2017 16:30:49 GMT
I'll throw this out here: nobody will prolly care, or not believe me, or call me stupid, but I don't really care. Being forced to play in a theme, which is both restrictive, and none of the themes seem to be super balanced to me, is what is killing my meta. The killer to most of my locals, is the whole free point thing. Some get too many free points, some get none, some of the themes free models are quite garbage for what they can take. Some of my peeps don't want to play ultra competitive anymore, and some of the people we travel to play with abuse it and make it not fun. But then again, I'm just a filthy casual who is trying to avoid tournament play Casuals unite! ...whenever it's convenient. There is no where in the rules that playing friendly, no-theme, games or events are not allowed. If you have good friends, good hearted players, then just ask that they play out of theme. If they refuse, well then that tells you something about them.
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Post by vakruz on Aug 17, 2017 16:33:27 GMT
I'll throw this out here: nobody will prolly care, or not believe me, or call me stupid, but I don't really care. Being forced to play in a theme, which is both restrictive, and none of the themes seem to be super balanced to me, is what is killing my meta. The killer to most of my locals, is the whole free point thing. Some get too many free points, some get none, some of the themes free models are quite garbage for what they can take. Some of my peeps don't want to play ultra competitive anymore, and some of the people we travel to play with abuse it and make it not fun. But then again, I'm just a filthy casual who is trying to avoid tournament play Casuals unite! ...whenever it's convenient. There is no where in the rules that playing friendly, no-theme, games or events are not allowed. If you have good friends, good hearted players, then just ask that they play out of theme. If they refuse, well then that tells you something about them. Yea my close friends do this, the guys we travel an hour to get to don't lol, and thats about the only other people in state we can play with.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 17, 2017 16:57:09 GMT
Casuals unite! ...whenever it's convenient. There is no where in the rules that playing friendly, no-theme, games or events are not allowed. If you have good friends, good hearted players, then just ask that they play out of theme. If they refuse, well then that tells you something about them. Yea my close friends do this, the guys we travel an hour to get to don't lol, and thats about the only other people in state we can play with. Can I point out that playing ultra competitive against more casual players isn't exactly confined to theme forces? If the themes didn't give these benefits, they'd play whatever else was most optimized and the situation would be the same. Regardless of whatever makes up the cream of the crop, playing a non-optimal list against one that has been tuned up is always going to put you at a disadvantage.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 17, 2017 17:04:28 GMT
I'll throw this out here: nobody will prolly care, or not believe me, or call me stupid, but I don't really care. Being forced to play in a theme, which is both restrictive, and none of the themes seem to be super balanced to me, is what is killing my meta. The killer to most of my locals, is the whole free point thing. Some get too many free points, some get none, some of the themes free models are quite garbage for what they can take. Some of my peeps don't want to play ultra competitive anymore, and some of the people we travel to play with abuse it and make it not fun. But then again, I'm just a filthy casual who is trying to avoid tournament play Casuals unite! ...whenever it's convenient. There is no where in the rules that playing friendly, no-theme, games or events are not allowed. If you have good friends, good hearted players, then just ask that they play out of theme. If they refuse, well then that tells you something about them. What exactly does it tell you about them?
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