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Post by oncomingstorm on Aug 17, 2017 8:14:13 GMT
Seriously, I want to know. When themes were intended to be balanced against non-theme forces, it made some degree of sense, because it gave a benefit for playing in vs. playing out of theme. However, now that we've been told that themes are intended to be the sole way to play competitively, I don't see any point at all to the concept of 'free points' in theme.
Everyone will be playing in theme, so everyone will have access to free points. There's no indication that free points have been used as a balance point to balance specific themes against each other, and some have wide disparities in the amount of free points they can access (take Devourer's Host - max 15 free points vs. the new merc theme - max 25 free points.)
ESPECIALLY since PP seems to be playing with the idea of having full-faction themes (in at least some instances,) functionally eliminating the difference between 'theme' and 'non-theme,' why exactly are free points a necessary and useful thing to have? Maybe they incentivize players to bring less-used combat solos, but that seems like such a tiny benefit for the other downsides (not to mention, it's lazy from a design perspective, since it means they don't have to fix underused models to sell them.)
Am I missing something, or is there really no reason to have free points exist? Why can't themes just be a collection of in-game, terrain, and deployment bonuses, and leave the damn 20%+ points disparity out of it?
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Post by flamigant on Aug 17, 2017 8:28:31 GMT
The free points thing was already a debacle in MK2 and they have fallen into the snake pit again with doing this. It feels like a sneaky way to increase the models on the table but then again just play on 100 points instead of 75 and change the free points to another "Benefit".
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Post by mikethefish on Aug 17, 2017 10:30:21 GMT
There is no indication that "full faction themes" will be repeated. Indeed, it's far more likely that stuff like Irregulars will be confined to Mercs, and perhaps Minions
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 10:34:04 GMT
While I can see the argument of 'if everyone has free points, no one will', however PPs stated aim to get everyone playing themes all the time, what better way to do that than create a massive disparity between themes and non-themes in the form of free points.
they are simply fulfilling their design intentions
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Aug 17, 2017 11:07:16 GMT
It's literally just a way to get you to buy more redundant models. "You want to run Iron Fang theme? Well we're going to make sure you have to buy two extra Iron Fang kovniks you can't and won't run in ANY OTHER LIST". It doesn't help PP if people only ever buy one model of a solo, they should buy at least three.
One of the big things putting me off the game right now is the themes and the face that most require you to bring multiples of models I don't want multiples of.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 11:13:00 GMT
It's literally just a way to get you to buy more redundant models. "You want to run Iron Fang theme? Well we're going to make sure you have to buy two extra Iron Fang kovniks you can't and won't run in ANY OTHER LIST". It doesn't help PP if people only ever buy one model of a solo, they should buy at least three. One of the big things putting me off the game right now is the themes and the face that most require you to bring multiples of models I don't want multiples of. In a shocking turn of events a company that makes models....tries to make people buy their models! |
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 17, 2017 11:53:08 GMT
Although it feels nice when you're making the list to get a bunch of free solos i dislike the concept in general. I just think it has a bunch of long term issues
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Aug 17, 2017 12:00:46 GMT
It's literally just a way to get you to buy more redundant models. "You want to run Iron Fang theme? Well we're going to make sure you have to buy two extra Iron Fang kovniks you can't and won't run in ANY OTHER LIST". It doesn't help PP if people only ever buy one model of a solo, they should buy at least three. One of the big things putting me off the game right now is the themes and the face that most require you to bring multiples of models I don't want multiples of. In a shocking turn of events a company that makes models....tries to make people buy their models! If they want me to buy multiples of their monopose models they should make me want to actually buy them by making them interesting in the first place, because currently it's having exactly the opposite effect. Save |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 12:16:50 GMT
In a shocking turn of events a company that makes models....tries to make people buy their models! If they want me to buy multiples of their monopose models they should make me want to actually buy them by making them interesting in the first place, because currently it's having exactly the opposite effect. Save Alot of miniature games require you to buy multiples of the same model, if you don't like doing that, then play something like Guildball instead |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 12:17:21 GMT
Although it feels nice when you're making the list to get a bunch of free solos i dislike the concept in general. I just think it has a bunch of long term issues What sort of long term issues to you foresee? |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 17, 2017 12:25:06 GMT
It's clear that they do not want to have 'in-theme' and 'out-of-theme' balanced. That, in my opinion, is the biggest grievance. You (PP) gave me a rule book and a huge selection of models. But now you tell me that I can only play these models in the way YOU want them to be played? Or else I take a penalty?
I have 2 words for you. Seven letters, and 3 of them are "F".
I'd rather see the factions point costs tuned down to actually fit into 75pts or standard games just go up to 90-100pts. While scrapping the stupid free model theme BS.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 17, 2017 12:27:09 GMT
Although it feels nice when you're making the list to get a bunch of free solos i dislike the concept in general. I just think it has a bunch of long term issues What sort of long term issues to you foresee? One theme getting completely broken due to interactions through existing or new release models. Then there's a debacle of "do we edit the model or the theme" and neither actually happen and so the meta goes off the rails to try and deal with the crap that PP won't do anything about. You know, MK2 stuff. |
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Aug 17, 2017 12:31:51 GMT
If they want me to buy multiples of their monopose models they should make me want to actually buy them by making them interesting in the first place, because currently it's having exactly the opposite effect. Save Alot of miniature games require you to buy multiples of the same model, if you don't like doing that, then play something like Guildball instead They do, but they don't restrict you from using those models in army lists. If I buy 5 Gremlin Swarms for Nightmare Menagerie, then I can't use 3 of those Swarms ANYWHERE else. If I buy 5 Rhinos for 40k I can use as many of them as I want in other lists. My issue is that the models you buy for themes are redundant in ANY OTHER LIST. I have no problem with CAs being one per unit for example because I'm not restricted in using them in other lists. Save |
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Post by JJDM on Aug 17, 2017 12:46:16 GMT
Theme forces can be played with any caster though, so you can play those 3 gremlin swarms in X lists where X is the number of warlocks in your faction. X is greater than one. Theme forces are how PP is balancing mk3 and it gives them the ability to make new releases good without power creeping too much, because they can limit where and how they are used in the existing and future theme forces.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 17, 2017 12:47:34 GMT
Another issue with "encouraging" purchasing of redundant duplicate models from PP is that with 40K just about every model can be converted easily to be multiple variants of the same miniature. For example, A Rhino can be made into a razorback with a few magnets, terminators and marines can have swappable arms, Orks...., every faction has multikits that are pretty easy to convert to be interchangeable. (with exceptions) With PP models you typically can only magnetize jacks and beasts. infantry, solos, BE's are all single release models and purchasing duplicates means you are stuck with those models and no easy or feasible way to convert them to be more than just the model it came as.
PP models are notoriously worse than GW models. GW sells models because they have really good quality miniatures. PP sells models so people can make really specific lists.
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