Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 17, 2017 12:49:12 GMT
Firstly it's not free points.
It's a free (Specific model) You probably think I'm being pedantic, but I'm not! When left to their own devices players generally fill their entire list with "Models that do work" this is when you see jack spam or 50 cryx dudes across the table. Players naturally take so much of X that your balanced list can't handle it.
These themes give you free points but don't let you spend it on another unit or another jack. This means you end up playing a more balanced style.
It super clever because it means they could increase the cost of solos so we didn't see Oceans 18. It means that players don't take the same 2-3 character jacks in every list. See Ruin, Behemoth, Ghetorix, Megolith, Typhon, Thorn, Scourge of Heresy, Discordia who used to get taken almost every game pre themes.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 12:51:43 GMT
Alot of miniature games require you to buy multiples of the same model, if you don't like doing that, then play something like Guildball instead They do, but they don't restrict you from using those models in army lists. If I buy 5 Gremlin Swarms for Nightmare Menagerie, then I can't use 3 of those Swarms ANYWHERE else. If I buy 5 Rhinos for 40k I can use as many of them as I want in other lists. My issue is that the models you buy for themes are redundant in ANY OTHER LIST. I have no problem with CAs being one per unit for example because I'm not restricted in using them in other lists. Save Maybe I just personally don't have a problem with buying lots of a certain model for only one list, I did buy 8 units of Doom Reavers for Mad Dogs of War after all.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 17, 2017 12:58:08 GMT
With the new theme forces coming, everyone will play only in theme ever, so everyone will always getting free points. Giving free points to everyone is like raising the point values of standard games and nothing more, but adding restrictions (unless you are a merc. In that case, you have LESS restrictions than in mk2 and still get the bonus. ). Yes, I really think that free models were the worst way to make theme forces, and they should be eliminated or at least greatly reduced. Playing out of theme should be a viable option, and playing 15 points short is not a viable option. It also introduces disparities, since the more high cost (so powerful) solos you have to take for free, the more you can exploit themes, and trivializes the cost of those solos since they will always be taken for free, removing the main balancing factor from the game (point cost). I really think that theme forces should be totally reworked from scratch. That said, I don't think PP will do that.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 17, 2017 12:58:40 GMT
It's clear that they do not want to have 'in-theme' and 'out-of-theme' balanced. That, in my opinion, is the biggest grievance. You (PP) gave me a rule book and a huge selection of models. But now you tell me that I can only play these models in the way YOU want them to be played? Or else I take a penalty? I have 2 words for you. Seven letters, and 3 of them are "F". I'd rather see the factions point costs tuned down to actually fit into 75pts or standard games just go up to 90-100pts. While scrapping the stupid free model theme BS. I'm sorry, but this post is full of self-contradictions. First, you gladly accept the rulebook for the models, then complain about then telling you how to play the models? I assume you feel there is a difference, can you elaborate on it? Second, you complain about free points, then say everyone should just play at 90-100 points? If you are playing in theme with free points, you pretty much already are. If everyone gets free points (a side effect of all models being available in themes), then the impact is less. Sure, not everyone can bring the same number for exact parity, but at the point when I am bringing 17 and you are bringing 20 we are talking differences similar to battlegroup points. I mean, I get it. Themes are annoying to you. But you have to present some better arguments to make your case, or just say you dislike them just because.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 17, 2017 13:00:24 GMT
Alot of miniature games require you to buy multiples of the same model, if you don't like doing that, then play something like Guildball instead They do, but they don't restrict you from using those models in army lists. If I buy 5 Gremlin Swarms for Nightmare Menagerie, then I can't use 3 of those Swarms ANYWHERE else. If I buy 5 Rhinos for 40k I can use as many of them as I want in other lists. My issue is that the models you buy for themes are redundant in ANY OTHER LIST. I have no problem with CAs being one per unit for example because I'm not restricted in using them in other lists. SaveI'm pretty sure they see this as a feature, not a bug. This has also been true since theme lists have given fa bumps, which I am pretty sure existed in mk1 and know existed in mk2.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 17, 2017 13:03:33 GMT
With the new theme forces coming, everyone will play only in theme ever, so everyone will always getting free point. Giving free points to everyone is like raising the point values of standard games and nothing more, but adding restrictions (unless you are a merc. In that case, you have LESS restrictions than in mk2 and still get the bonus. ). Yes, I really think that free models were the worst way to make theme forces, and they should be eliminated or at least greatly reduced. Playing out of theme should be a viable option, and playing 15 points short is not a viable option. It also introduces disparities, since the more high cost (so powerful) solos you have to take for free, the more you can exploit themes, and trivialize the cost of those solos since they will always be taken for free, removing the main balancing factor from the game (point cost). I really think that theme forces should be totally reworked from scratch. That said, I don't think PP will do that. Would them giving a sort of generic theme for factions solve this problem for you? It could give free points for taking whatever, then give you minimal bonuses beyond free models so there would still be a reason to take "real" themes.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 17, 2017 13:04:25 GMT
Although it feels nice when you're making the list to get a bunch of free solos i dislike the concept in general. I just think it has a bunch of long term issues What sort of long term issues to you foresee? For example. How do you balance a model when most of the time they are free? Does their point cost matter anymore? Imagine a model that is over costed but gets taken for free. They have no reason to ever adjust its point cost cause it will usually be free so what's the point. Let's assume there is an issue with a model costing too much. New holden model is 100 points let's say. Since he can be taken for free in a certain theme then there is no problem cause the model is usable. The way you fixed the problem is by patching it over with new rules. Instead of fixing the base rules so you have a good core and foundation you're just layering more fixes on top of everything until it becomes a house made of junk.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Aug 17, 2017 13:11:06 GMT
I'm pretty sure they see this as a feature, not a bug. This has also been true since theme lists have given fa bumps, which I am pretty sure existed in mk1 and know existed in mk2. Theme lists didn't really exist in Mk1. They had special forces, which were similar, but they were a weird NQ experiment and each faction only had one (Cygnar = storm guys, Khador = winterguard, Menoth = flameguard, Cryx = pirates).
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Post by jisidro on Aug 17, 2017 13:12:24 GMT
What sort of long term issues to you foresee? For example. How do you balance a model when most of the time they are free? Does their point cost matter anymore? Imagine a model that is over costed but gets taken for free. They have no reason to ever adjust its point cost cause it will usually be free so what's the point.
This, this this!
I feel this is the single best reason to give out free points instead of X free models. It points towards lazy design, why spend time on a useless feature if the model will (almost) never be taken for his value?
CID will also get corrupted as people won't see the point in testing a solo according to his cost but will only look to his abilities.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 17, 2017 13:17:27 GMT
It's clear that they do not want to have 'in-theme' and 'out-of-theme' balanced. That, in my opinion, is the biggest grievance. You (PP) gave me a rule book and a huge selection of models. But now you tell me that I can only play these models in the way YOU want them to be played? Or else I take a penalty? I have 2 words for you. Seven letters, and 3 of them are "F". I'd rather see the factions point costs tuned down to actually fit into 75pts or standard games just go up to 90-100pts. While scrapping the stupid free model theme BS. I'm sorry, but this post is full of self-contradictions. First, you gladly accept the rulebook for the models, then complain about then telling you how to play the models? I assume you feel there is a difference, can you elaborate on it? Second, you complain about free points, then say everyone should just play at 90-100 points? If you are playing in theme with free points, you pretty much already are. If everyone gets free points (a side effect of all models being available in themes), then the impact is less. Sure, not everyone can bring the same number for exact parity, but at the point when I am bringing 17 and you are bringing 20 we are talking differences similar to battlegroup points. I mean, I get it. Themes are annoying to you. But you have to present some better arguments to make your case, or just say you dislike them just because. You already landed on the problems yourself. There is a difference in giving me a rules set for models. Telling me my faction can use all of these models. Then you comeback 6 months after Mk3 release and tell me I'm only allowed to use certain models together. A broad allusion would be to a deck of cards. You have a full deck of 52 cards. You can play any card game by the rules that are already supplied (blackjack, poker, go fish, whatever). But then after a while I tell you you can only play with the "red" suits because they work together in the fiction. So now half the deck of cards is not "allowed" to be played due to an arbitrary ideal by someone else. THAT is my problem. again, you figured this out already. Not every theme list and faction is capable of fielding the same number of free points. What I would rather see is the free models bonus removed and the standard game size be standardized between all factions and all themes so that you are playing a fairly equal game. If I play oracles with Kryssa and put 75 + 31 + 20 points on the table, I'm playing a 126 point game. If you field a non-theme list with <generic caster> with +25 WB points you get a 100 point game. That's 26 points difference. But if we were playing a 100 point game and no free models we'd only being playing 6 point different and both players would get the support models the WANT to take.
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Post by Aegis on Aug 17, 2017 13:23:01 GMT
With the new theme forces coming, everyone will play only in theme ever, so everyone will always getting free point. Giving free points to everyone is like raising the point values of standard games and nothing more, but adding restrictions (unless you are a merc. In that case, you have LESS restrictions than in mk2 and still get the bonus. ). Yes, I really think that free models were the worst way to make theme forces, and they should be eliminated or at least greatly reduced. Playing out of theme should be a viable option, and playing 15 points short is not a viable option. It also introduces disparities, since the more high cost (so powerful) solos you have to take for free, the more you can exploit themes, and trivialize the cost of those solos since they will always be taken for free, removing the main balancing factor from the game (point cost). I really think that theme forces should be totally reworked from scratch. That said, I don't think PP will do that. Would them giving a sort of generic theme for factions solve this problem for you? It could give free points for taking whatever, then give you minimal bonuses beyond free models so there would still be a reason to take "real" themes. It would help, yes, but would still be a bit weird... If everyone gets free models, why don't just raise the the size of tournament games to 80 points, remove bonus points from themes and focus on more in-game bonuses for them? It would be way more elegant and interesting. Anyway yes, generic themes would be an (ankward) way to partially resolve the problem. I still don't like the "free solo" concept anyway. It trivializes the point cost of solos, since now you are pretty much only taking solos when free, so their point cost becomes irrilevant, while it should be their main balancing factor (what is the point in having a powerful solo cost 7-8 points, if then it gets taken for free and "costs" as much as a 3 points one?). Honestly, I think that free points should just be removed, or at least heavily changed. I liked MK2 way to add free points to themes more. Having one of the benefits of some themes saying things like "Heavy Wold Warbeasts cost -1" or "One Bane Thrall unit gets a free UA" would be way better, not only because it would add a lot less free points (avoiding to make non-themed army useless), but also tieing the free points to specific models lets you control specifically what you are going to get, letting you balance the theme knowing that. Anyway, I always found that "in game" benefits are much more interesting for themes. If a theme is about playing gun mages, it should encourage me playing them making them better into the theme (as an example giving them an extra, significant, ability), at the price of limiting my options in list-building. That are the kind of themes I wish we got. Instead, most themes have very "meh" bonuses in game, and just give you a bunch of free solos for spamming a certain type of models... not very interesting.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 13:23:14 GMT
What sort of long term issues to you foresee? For example. How do you balance a model when most of the time they are free? Does their point cost matter anymore? Imagine a model that is over costed but gets taken for free. They have no reason to ever adjust its point cost cause it will usually be free so what's the point. Let's assume there is an issue with a model costing too much. New holden model is 100 points let's say. Since he can be taken for free in a certain theme then there is no problem cause the model is usable. The way you fixed the problem is by patching it over with new rules. Instead of fixing the base rules so you have a good core and foundation you're just layering more fixes on top of everything until it becomes a house made of junk. Just because a model is free most of the time does not mean it cannot be balanced, you can still quantify how good it is by looking at its rules, and comparing it to other models eligible for those free slots in a particular theme.
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Post by elladan52 on Aug 17, 2017 13:26:33 GMT
@forever_Blight I don't disagree that PP should have released themes immediately to set the tone for mk3, I think it was a big mistake not to. So I kind of agree with the bait-and-switch aspect of your first argument.
But all your arguments are predicated on playing non-theme vs theme, which apparently is not PP'S goal. Theme vs. theme sidesteps the problems you set out, the games are fair because everyone has access to free models. Only when you want a specific combo that's not in a theme do problems arise.
I'll pose the same question to you as Aegis: would a generic theme that has minimal bonuses beyond free models that you could take most anything with solve the problem for you?
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Post by Aegis on Aug 17, 2017 13:28:23 GMT
For example. How do you balance a model when most of the time they are free? Does their point cost matter anymore? Imagine a model that is over costed but gets taken for free. They have no reason to ever adjust its point cost cause it will usually be free so what's the point. Let's assume there is an issue with a model costing too much. New holden model is 100 points let's say. Since he can be taken for free in a certain theme then there is no problem cause the model is usable. The way you fixed the problem is by patching it over with new rules. Instead of fixing the base rules so you have a good core and foundation you're just layering more fixes on top of everything until it becomes a house made of junk. Just because a model is free most of the time does not mean it cannot be balanced, you can still quantify how good it is by looking at its rules, and comparing it to other models eligible for those free slots in a particular theme. But it is way more difficult to do that. Take the new Gun Mage Lt we are getting on december as an example... Say that PP wanted to make it very good to help SoT. If free point didn't exist, he could be a 6-7 points solo with very powerful abilities, while now his cost will never matter, since every time we are going to use him is in SoT as free solo, so his point cost are not a balancing factor anymore.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 17, 2017 13:35:27 GMT
Just because a model is free most of the time does not mean it cannot be balanced, you can still quantify how good it is by looking at its rules, and comparing it to other models eligible for those free slots in a particular theme. But it is way more difficult to do that. Take the new Gun Mage Lt we are getting on december as an example... Say that PP wanted to make it very good to help SoT. If free point didn't exist, he could be a 6-7 points solo with very powerful abilities, while now his cost will never matter, since every time we are going to use him is in SoT as free solo, so his point cost are not a balancing factor anymore. So he will be balanced by his rules relative to the other free options in Sons of the Tempest, PP can compare him to the GMCA, Marksman and Gun Mage UA, and decide whether his rules and abilities are appropriate, and whether he is a compelling option compared to his competition in that theme. I don't see how balancing a model like that is an issue
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