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Post by beardmonk on Aug 3, 2017 13:54:41 GMT
I know it’s not the same everywhere but in my meta the instability of Mk3 and the fact that every faction requires almost a complete redesign via CiD has completely killed my meta. It also seems that this is the impression much of the war gaming press and websites have of Mk3.
PP have recently announced a number of new initiatives (Company of Iron, Grind, Lootcrate, a new faction per years). While I cautiously welcome some of these things I have a major niggle in that I wish PP would have diverted the effort required by the developers for these initiatives into “fixing” all the factions for WM/H. After all, increased dev and internal play testing should reduce the number of CiD cycles a faction needs to go through (assuming they are doing proper play testing internally)
As I understand it, by the end 2017 there will still be factions who have not been through the CiD process which will put many people off playing as they will feel their faction is at a disadvantage.
My question is this: Should PP work to fix the issues with existing factions rather than doing “new things”. Or if they are going to do “other things” what should they prioritise?
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Aug 3, 2017 14:02:03 GMT
What makes you think every faction needs a CID redesign? The only faction that has received a substantial change to how they started in Mk III has been Skorne, which wasn't even via CID.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 3, 2017 14:02:53 GMT
I don't think the popular consensus is that every faction needs to go through CID, at least I wouldn't expect many of them to go through one's as wide ranging as the Troll CID.
Trolls had been considered the bottom faction in the game for over six months and they still only got a few tweaks. i.e the stone and runebearer. Most of it was related to the new theme that was coming.
The short answer is that most factions don't need fixing, hell Trolls didn't even get fixed. They got a few minor changes with a hope to bring the up. The vast majority of factions in this game are absolutely fine. The game is more balanced than it has literally ever been.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 3, 2017 14:07:44 GMT
CID is play testing new rules. The redesign largely happens before CID.
After participating in the CID a few times, I think there's a pretty serious limit to how much can be pushed through it at once. It might get better with time, but there's only so much testing and changing that can be done in a few weeks.
I would rather PP did a few cycles for model types throughout the game. We could have a Cavalry CID, a Gargossals CID, a character jack/beast CID. That would grant every faction help.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 3, 2017 14:14:16 GMT
I know it’s not the same everywhere but in my meta the instability of Mk3 and the fact that every faction requires almost a complete redesign via CiD has completely killed my meta. Stopped reading after that because you opened your post with nonsense.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 3, 2017 14:29:51 GMT
After the Battle Engine CID that is my idea of hell. From when the battle engine CID was announced to when the final rules were released, unless you were testing them specifically there was little to no reason to play them in casual or tournament games, no one wants to play with or against something that will be different in a few months. For me personally I just want to play the game in its current state, and have little or no interest in testing CID, and having to exclude models because they are going to change is a massive downer for me.
Now with Battle engines it was tolerable because no one used them anyway so who cares, but putting huge swathes of widely used models into CID just makes playing the game in the here and now seem pretty pointless, for me at least.
I just want PP to design a good game that I can play, I am not interested really in being a sideline developer.
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Post by JJDM on Aug 3, 2017 14:31:55 GMT
Even if you don't think every faction requires a complete redesign and the game is fine right now, it's impossible to deny that in the cryx, cygnar, troll cycles there were a whole bunch of existing models that were redesigned.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 3, 2017 14:47:41 GMT
I just want PP to design a good game that I can play, I am not interested really in being a sideline developer.
Then don't? Nobody is forcing you to be in CID. I generally follow most cycles as a lurker on the forums, and if someone asks me to play against test models in a friendly game, I will, but it's not like most things get a complete overhaul. I don't agree that this CID cycle didn't "fix" a lot in Trolls. A few of their casters got major changes as well as a few of their staples, like the Earthborn getting cheaper and the Stone being more self-sufficient. As a whole I think it will give the whole faction a more solid and wide base. That being said, I don't think many factions need as much done as Trolls, Cryx and Skorne did. Perhaps Circle could stand to have a few things brought up to par so they will actually want to play some of their infantry and Wolds. Probably the same for Legion, but at least they perform. Cygnar, Khador, Retribution and Protectorate are largely fine, perhaps a few tweaks here and there, which Cygnar just got.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 3, 2017 14:54:11 GMT
Even if you don't think every faction requires a complete redesign and the game is fine right now, it's impossible to deny that in the cryx, cygnar, troll cycles there were a whole bunch of existing models that were redesigned. You are completely misusing the term "redesign" and thus blowing it out of proportion. There were models that went through some minor edits. Nothing (existing model or new) went into the CID one way and came out the other side entirely different ie "redesigned". A Bane warrior~esque model did not go in and come out with goblin tinker~esque rules. That would be a redesign as the identity, purpose, and entire rules package changed. Not even Skorne was a complete "redesign". Most of their models kept their identity just changed how they did their job.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 3, 2017 15:00:21 GMT
Even if you don't think every faction requires a complete redesign and the game is fine right now, it's impossible to deny that in the cryx, cygnar, troll cycles there were a whole bunch of existing models that were redesigned. I'd absolutely deny that.
Nothing close to a redesign.
Hell I play Trolls and the majority of the changes are pretty minor. Yes I'll be happy when the stone change goes live, but that's almost certainly over a month away. It's not like I won't play Trolls until the changes go through.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 3, 2017 15:00:52 GMT
I just want PP to design a good game that I can play, I am not interested really in being a sideline developer.
Then don't? Nobody is forcing you to be in CID. I generally follow most cycles as a lurker on the forums, and if someone asks me to play against test models in a friendly game, I will, but it's not like most things get a complete overhaul. My point was that if they put large amounts of models from every faction into CID at once then it is unavoidable being involved, either you have to play against people who want to test stuff, or you have to exclude large groups of models from your lists until they are finalised, which may be months down the line.
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Post by JJDM on Aug 3, 2017 15:05:58 GMT
Even if you don't think every faction requires a complete redesign and the game is fine right now, it's impossible to deny that in the cryx, cygnar, troll cycles there were a whole bunch of existing models that were redesigned. You are completely misusing the term "redesign" and thus blowing it out of proportion. There were models that went through some minor edits. Nothing (existing model or new) went into the CID one way and came out the other side entirely different ie "redesigned". A Bane warrior~esque model did not go in and come out with goblin tinker~esque rules. That would be a redesign as the identity, purpose, and entire rules package changed. Not even Skorne was a complete "redesign". Most of their models kept their identity just changed how they did their job. Jeremiah Kraye gained a point of ARM, gained a point of RAT, gained Steady, lost all 4 of his original Mk3 spells, gained 5 brand new spells, and had his feat completely redesigned.
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Post by JJDM on Aug 3, 2017 15:08:46 GMT
Even if you don't think every faction requires a complete redesign and the game is fine right now, it's impossible to deny that in the cryx, cygnar, troll cycles there were a whole bunch of existing models that were redesigned. I'd absolutely deny that.
Nothing close to a redesign.
Hell I play Trolls and the majority of the changes are pretty minor. Yes I'll be happy when the stone change goes live, but that's almost certainly over a month away. It's not like I won't play Trolls until the changes go through.
Madrak1 had his feat completely changed, and 66% of his spells changed, and gained tactician warrior model.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 3, 2017 15:10:03 GMT
You are completely misusing the term "redesign" and thus blowing it out of proportion. There were models that went through some minor edits. Nothing (existing model or new) went into the CID one way and came out the other side entirely different ie "redesigned". A Bane warrior~esque model did not go in and come out with goblin tinker~esque rules. That would be a redesign as the identity, purpose, and entire rules package changed. Not even Skorne was a complete "redesign". Most of their models kept their identity just changed how they did their job. Jeremiah Kraye gained a point of ARM, gained a point of RAT, gained Steady, lost all 4 of his original Mk3 spells, gained 5 brand new spells, and had his feat completely redesigned. Yes Kraye got redesigned. He's a caster that wasn't getting played much due to many issues so they changed him.
You're telling me people can't play the game, because one caster that wasn't getting played got a rethink? I even know someone who plays Kraye competitively right now.
He played him twice in the CID form to give some feedback and then went back to playing old Kraye in tournaments. He's excited when the new one is released, but it's hardly the huge faction overhaul that people suggest,
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Post by JJDM on Aug 3, 2017 15:11:57 GMT
I don't know if it stops people from playing the game or not. I'm simply saying that you cannot deny that some existing models were significantly changed through CID process, and this is making all the other factions that haven't got a CID cycle yet wonder when their turn is coming.
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