Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 3, 2017 15:12:31 GMT
I'd absolutely deny that.
Nothing close to a redesign.
Hell I play Trolls and the majority of the changes are pretty minor. Yes I'll be happy when the stone change goes live, but that's almost certainly over a month away. It's not like I won't play Trolls until the changes go through.
Madrak1 had his feat completely changed, and 66% of his spells changed, and gained tactician warrior model. And wasn't getting played anyway, he is, in his current form unplayable. It's essentially like getting a new caster released in a few months that we know about. How does that cause any of the problems OP is complaining about. Do you consider one caster in a faction a complete faction redesign?
Or is this all just hyperbole, because people like having something to complain about. Themes, CID, blah blah blah!
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 3, 2017 15:14:30 GMT
I don't know if it stops people from playing the game or not. I'm simply saying that you cannot deny that some existing models were significantly changed through CID process, and this is making all the other factions that haven't got a CID cycle yet wonder when their turn is coming. Ahh sorry didn't realised you'd hijacked the original thread topic to whine about "When's it my turn"
I agree, it's disgraceful that PP didn't redesign a single caster in every faction all at once (!) good grief!
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Post by JJDM on Aug 3, 2017 15:15:44 GMT
Go back and read the OP and tell me if hijacked the thread. It started as whining about when's it my turn!
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 3, 2017 15:19:56 GMT
And if that continues, I will shut this down. Play nice.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 3, 2017 15:39:42 GMT
I don't know if it stops people from playing the game or not. I'm simply saying that you cannot deny that some existing models were significantly changed through CID process, and this is making all the other factions that haven't got a CID cycle yet wonder when their turn is coming. I absolutely cannot deny that I hate the waiting and speculation on "what will they change next". But from the way CID has gone I'm no less than content and more often appreciative of the things they are doing. Kraye change, Madrak changed, and Triumph changed. So lets look at it like this - one single model per CID gets "redesigned" to align with some planned ideal power level. So even if every faction goes through CID, only 12 models out of hundreds is getting redesigned. That is not something that's going to flip the game on it's head. My meta is on the verge of dead too. Mostly from belly aching about changes and perceived slights by PP. I cannot deny that either. But in the reality of the actual game balance, where even the "worst" casters and models in the game can make good play experience in a casual setting, the game is currently fantastic. Are there still grievances? Is the tournament scene uneven? Does Cygnar get too much love ? Yes, but from a "birds eye view" things are going quite well. It's just that people are passionate about the game and sometimes there is a gut felt reaction to changes. That's not to say those people/feelings are wrong. It's just going to be a part of an evolving game. <insert log running super popular card game franchise> They don't directly errata cards, but the ban some, the phase out certain sets, they in essence invalidate purchases every year with new tournament sets and so on. But they've been doing it for so long it's accepted as the norm. MK3 and the errata, CID, etc are all brand new. Things will quite down once they get through the bulk of themes and once we have the "intended" amount of content for MK3 we'll be fine and a majority of this drama will be gone and forgotten.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Aug 3, 2017 15:42:58 GMT
Does Cygnar get too much love ? Yes, Lies and Slander! the Swans are fair and balanced I think you will find!....
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Post by pangurban on Aug 3, 2017 15:44:27 GMT
I don't know if it stops people from playing the game or not. I'm simply saying that you cannot deny that some existing models were significantly changed through CID process, and this is making all the other factions that haven't got a CID cycle yet wonder when their turn is coming. A few were significantly changed, a larger number got a minor update, and the vast majority of models - of any faction - hasn't gone through CID yet. I get that people are chomping at the bit for their weak stuff to get a buff (keep in mind that some of the models that went through CID actually got nerfed, although that is not the norm and likely never will be) but there hasn't been and never will be a major faction overhaul done through CID, at least not in one go. CID tackles small subsections of factions or specific model types: that insures turnover can be faster, so even if you have to wait a bit for your faction to get some special attention it's probably going as fast as it can while still keeping the process meaningful.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 3, 2017 15:46:34 GMT
Caine3 is fine! Nothin' to see here!
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Post by Aegis on Aug 3, 2017 16:05:25 GMT
Caine3 is fine! Nothin' to see here! And I can remember right after his release some big Cygnar players saying he was bad or at best "meh".
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 3, 2017 16:16:21 GMT
Caine3 is fine! Nothin' to see here! And I can remember right after his release some big Cygnar players saying he was bad or at best "meh". Players thought he was a one trick pony. And he is. But we underestimated how good his one trick is.
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Post by josephkerr on Aug 3, 2017 18:00:59 GMT
I don't think the game is in a state where it needs a CID overhaul for each faction, or even many factions. This is more a case of the players reinforcing themselves that all perceived slights are PPs fault and proof the game is "broken." I think it's more a case of bad players displacing their frustration to the game itself instead of their own play problems, especially with how many players glorify mk2 despite it having many broken rules interactions and a huge gap between top casters and everyone else.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 3, 2017 18:34:14 GMT
What makes you think every faction needs a CID redesign? The only faction that has received a substantial change to how they started in Mk III has been Skorne, which wasn't even via CID. Every faction needs to go back through CID to iron out the major kinks. Basically to fix the mistakes PP made in the transition to Mk3, actually fix all the problems instead of patching them with theme forces. Most factions don't need huge CID changes, but they all need a little work. To get the under performing units up to par and to tone down any of the OP stuff. PP should ask the community what stuff in each faction needs work. PP should then take 2-3 weeks to make their own tweaks, then put those into CID for 2ish weeks. Then move on to the next faction. PP should stop putting all this effort into these alternative formats because it really distracts from the main game.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 3, 2017 18:54:20 GMT
What makes you think every faction needs a CID redesign? The only faction that has received a substantial change to how they started in Mk III has been Skorne, which wasn't even via CID. Every faction needs to go back through CID to iron out the major kinks. Basically to fix the mistakes PP made in the transition to Mk3, actually fix all the problems instead of patching them with theme forces. Most factions don't need huge CID changes, but they all need a little work. To get the under performing units up to par and to tone down any of the OP stuff. PP should ask the community what stuff in each faction needs work. PP should then take 2-3 weeks to make their own tweaks, then put those into CID for 2ish weeks. Then move on to the next faction. PP should stop putting all this effort into these alternative formats because it really distracts from the main game. Anyone who expected a 100% equal balanced game when mk3 came out was delusional. They're doing exactly what I expect they would after mk3 launched. They're toning down the things at the top and bringing up the things at the bottom to get everything in line. PP's ability to do this with only internal testing before MK3 launched was impossible. They're sample size is limited. It took 1000s of people and games to play test everything enough to establish outliers. Were some things obviously too strong? Sure. But they have done their best to adjust for that quickly. I have confidence in PP to continue their efforts to make this game one we can enjoy for a long time.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 3, 2017 19:09:01 GMT
Of course we didn't expect a perfectly balanced game. But it definitely wasn't unreasonable to expect better than what we had in mk2. But what we got was Mk3 was overall a step backwards for balance. Many things which were too strong in mk2 stayed too strong. Some stuff which was perfectly fine was inexplicably nerfed. And lots of stuff that has been awful even since mk1 stayed awful.
Even given the limitations that PP was under, they did a fairly poor job rolling out mk3. They need to really go full force into CID to fix their shortcomings, and be open to criticism and admitting they made mistakes.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Aug 3, 2017 19:40:12 GMT
My meta seems pretty good. I started in 3rd Edition, and have had a positive experience. Sure, I've been rolled a couple times, but I learned from my mistakes and kept going.
I haven't played a game yet where I felt I had no chance [other than my own mistakes] or in which my opponent had no chance [but I wouldn't recognize that if it bit me.]
In my short-term experience [6 months, a couple games a month] this game is good. I realize there's changes going on, and I roll with them when they impact me. So far, nothing has changed my purchasing plans.
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