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Post by whiskeydave on Aug 3, 2017 19:57:47 GMT
They have made more changes for the better in one year than in the lifespan of Mk2.
They are criticized if they go too fast because "everything is always changing". They are criticized if they go too slow because "everything is broken".
I am more than a little tired of people pretending like there were not 5-7 lists dominating Mk2 and that it was some magic land where everything was perfect.
IMO, Mk3 is better and has inherent mechanisms for addressing real issues.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Aug 3, 2017 20:21:20 GMT
PP should stop putting all this effort into these alternative formats because it really distracts from the main game. PP should definitely not stop putting all this effort into alternative formats because it's way more interesting than playing my 3 millionth Steamroller scenario. The idea that every faction needs some sort of mass CID before PP is allowed to release new stuff is ridiculous. They're going to continue doing what they're doing; folding problem models into Theme Force CIDs as needed. It's working, it's working well even. They definitely shouldn't bow to whiny players who insist that THEIR demands are more important than anything else the company is doing. Alternative formats bring in new players, GW has shown this is true with all of their "board games" that use Warhammer models and rules. They also provide new ways for existing players to engage with the game. If they're smart they'll continue putting resources into these areas because they're the best way to bring in players.
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Post by gobber on Aug 3, 2017 20:35:21 GMT
I'm coming out of of the Northkin cycle quite heartened. There's definitely a bandwidth limit on a single CID cycle, which they learned via the merc/minion inclusion then rollback for a future cycle. For the moment, the main holdup is waiting for previous CID rules to hit the main game. It's hard to move on to future testing cycles when we don't know the final versions of trenchers, stormlances, northkin, etc... Hopefully they'll be able to speed up that lag a bit, as it seems like frequent but very narrow CID is the way to go.
I'm not sure there's ever going to be a single "heavy infantry" cycle, but they're definitely going in that direction with the Champion and Sanguine bond fixes. PP knows what's not selling; the costs associated with keeping production lines open for models that aren't selling make these fixes inevitable. Hell, they may have just figured out a way to sell oodles of Trollkin sorcerers without a direct buff.
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Post by copperflame on Aug 3, 2017 20:47:07 GMT
Does Cygnar get too much love ? Yes, Lies and Slander! the Swans are fair and balanced I think you will find!.... II read this in JJ's voice... made me chuckle.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 3, 2017 21:22:52 GMT
Of course we didn't expect a perfectly balanced game. But it definitely wasn't unreasonable to expect better than what we had in mk2. But what we got was Mk3 was overall a step backwards for balance. Many things which were too strong in mk2 stayed too strong. Some stuff which was perfectly fine was inexplicably nerfed. And lots of stuff that has been awful even since mk1 stayed awful. Greytemplar, I know that you are a ~passionate~ advocate of Steam Roller scenario use in playing games of Warmachine / Hordes, based upon your previous posts. I think there are 2 assumptions inherent within your argument above that may not be wise to take for granted: 1) Privateer Press plays Steam Roller scenarios when judging if casters / solos / units / jacks are balanced against one another for their points.They don't. If they did I think we would probably see a stronger emphasis on Steam Roller throughout everything else they do, including battle reports in No Quarter using Steam Roller scenario set-ups. 2) Privateer Press cares about having every caster / solo / unit / jack balanced against each other in a fine-tuned manner for Steam Roller tournament play.I doubt it. They definitely want to make sure that the game doesn't implode on itself when it is played, and they want to make sure that one faction doesn't run rough-shod over all of the other factions. (Well, OK, they may favor Cygnar, but that's another discussion.) Beyond that I'm betting that they were more worried about Power Up and collecting Fury from dead warbeasts and everything else regarding balance was a detail to be ironed out later. Ah, yes, because every product roll-out goes off without a hiccup. I don't know, I thought that the Mk3 battle boxes went off pretty well. I don't know what you and the others think, but I think the Mk3 Battle Boxes are abso-fracking-lutely brilliant. I think that there were some legal issues that came up, and GW's change in leadership, that made PP realize that they had to change what looked like a pretty decent game plan and change it on the fly. Would this make you feel better? So, tell me, where is this list of "shortcomings" that need to be fixed? Was it generated by the gamers? While I'm sure that PP would be interested in getting input for where things can be improved, if a list of demands is acquiesced to then you start to get the inmates running the asylum. Should PP simply stop all forward progress on their current business plan of developing new theme army lists, and new miniatures to go in them as well as mixing in under-loved units, just to make everything happy-shiny-wonderful for you and other like-minded people? If you still have an open emotional wound from Privateer Press not being "open to criticism and admitting they made mistakes" I suggest talking to friends, getting counseling, or moving on. What do you think CID is? Explicitly it is "Community Integrated Development" (or whatever). Tacitly it is effectively "Hey, we screwed up before, tell us where we screwed up and what we can do to make things better." It may not be in some big "Come to Jesus" meeting in a big outdoor tent on a hot summer evening with singing and dancing, but it does allow the business of Privateer Press to continue to operate.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 3, 2017 21:28:05 GMT
If PP stops making new products, they die. Not releasing game variants and new models to pour more effort into cid (which probably nets them less money from purchases than new releases do) makes no business sense.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 3, 2017 21:32:52 GMT
I'm coming out of of the Northkin cycle quite heartened. There's definitely a bandwidth limit on a single CID cycle, which they learned via the merc/minion inclusion then rollback for a future cycle. For the moment, the main holdup is waiting for previous CID rules to hit the main game. It's hard to move on to future testing cycles when we don't know the final versions of trenchers, stormlances, northkin, etc... Hopefully they'll be able to speed up that lag a bit, as it seems like frequent but very narrow CID is the way to go. I wouldn't sweat that too much. CID is for balancing against the game in general, a number of models being slightly off isn't the end of the world. Nothing blatantly overpowered is going to slip through because of it. PP is refraining from officializing the CID outcomes as frequently as CID goes through cycles to avoid burning players out with monthly or so errata releases.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 3, 2017 22:07:21 GMT
Of course we didn't expect a perfectly balanced game. But it definitely wasn't unreasonable to expect better than what we had in mk2. But what we got was Mk3 was overall a step backwards for balance. Many things which were too strong in mk2 stayed too strong. Some stuff which was perfectly fine was inexplicably nerfed. And lots of stuff that has been awful even since mk1 stayed awful. Greytemplar, I know that you are a ~passionate~ advocate of Steam Roller scenario use in playing games of Warmachine / Hordes, based upon your previous posts. I think there are 2 assumptions inherent within your argument above that may not be wise to take for granted: 1) Privateer Press plays Steam Roller scenarios when judging if casters / solos / units / jacks are balanced against one another for their points.They don't. If they did I think we would probably see a stronger emphasis on Steam Roller throughout everything else they do, including battle reports in No Quarter using Steam Roller scenario set-ups. 2) Privateer Press cares about having every caster / solo / unit / jack balanced against each other in a fine-tuned manner for Steam Roller tournament play.I doubt it. They definitely want to make sure that the game doesn't implode on itself when it is played, and they want to make sure that one faction doesn't run rough-shod over all of the other factions. (Well, OK, they may favor Cygnar, but that's another discussion.) Beyond that I'm betting that they were more worried about Power Up and collecting Fury from dead warbeasts and everything else regarding balance was a detail to be ironed out later. Ah, yes, because every product roll-out goes off without a hiccup. I don't know, I thought that the Mk3 battle boxes went off pretty well. I don't know what you and the others think, but I think the Mk3 Battle Boxes are abso-fracking-lutely brilliant. I think that there were some legal issues that came up, and GW's change in leadership, that made PP realize that they had to change what looked like a pretty decent game plan and change it on the fly. Would this make you feel better? So, tell me, where is this list of "shortcomings" that need to be fixed? Was it generated by the gamers? While I'm sure that PP would be interested in getting input for where things can be improved, if a list of demands is acquiesced to then you start to get the inmates running the asylum. Should PP simply stop all forward progress on their current business plan of developing new theme army lists, and new miniatures to go in them as well as mixing in under-loved units, just to make everything happy-shiny-wonderful for you and other like-minded people? If you still have an open emotional wound from Privateer Press not being "open to criticism and admitting they made mistakes" I suggest talking to friends, getting counseling, or moving on. What do you think CID is? Explicitly it is "Community Integrated Development" (or whatever). Tacitly it is effectively "Hey, we screwed up before, tell us where we screwed up and what we can do to make things better." It may not be in some big "Come to Jesus" meeting in a big outdoor tent on a hot summer evening with singing and dancing, but it does allow the business of Privateer Press to continue to operate. Thats exactly the problem. They don't use Steamroller as a yardstick when designing units so that everything works well. They cop out and don't care if certain things are under performers or over performers. And finally they don't give a damn about even trying to make everything at least as well balanced as it could be. Deliverers have always sucked. Mk1 they sucked. mk2 they sucked. And they suck in mk3. Thats really an indicator that PP is not actually trying. And you are wrong in assuming that PP addressing all these problems would mean that their business would grind to a halt and they'd sink and die as a company. Fixing the old problems would actually be a good thing for their business. It would make people buy stuff that already exists. Stuff that PP has already sunk development and production costs into making, but are not selling. From a business standpoint it's better to take something that already exists and tweak it so people will buy it. So yeah, they would be better off if they took some time to clean up what they already have instead of taking on these overly ambitious extra projects. As PP has said themselves, they're a small company. By adding more and more side projects they're bogging down their already limited resources, to the detriment of their main money maker. Yes, they do need to keep adding new stuff. But it's not a constant need. They would be fine taking a year or so to focus on fixing the old stuff and building a solid base game and then after that is done add new stuff. It's not like I'm saying they shouldn't make anything new ever. What I am saying is that they can't ignore old problems, because that isn't good practice. The way they've implemented CID is also not a place where they admit mistakes. Read their laughably restrictive ToS for it. You're also not allowed to question their reasons for designing anything the way they did. The only real input you can have is help them realize their vision. You can't have any input on the initial vision itself, even if the original vision is what is flawed. So yeah, they are still unwilling to admit mistakes in key areas. Areas where they actually need to admit them and realize they've screwed up the foundations. They're like a building contractor making a house, and they've screwed up the main frame of the house, but won't accept any criticism that doesn't involve the paint or carpet. Oh, and your insinuation that I somehow have some psychological problems because I feel the way I do is both insulting and indicative of the quality of your argument. You don't have a good one, so all you can do is question your opponent's mental state. Classy.
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Post by Azuresun on Aug 3, 2017 22:08:45 GMT
If PP stops making new products, they die. Not releasing game variants and new models to pour more effort into cid (which probably nets them less money from purchases than new releases do) makes no business sense. Then again, errata-ing something bad to be good is effectively a new release, especially if it's always been bad. Look at how Triumph went from being a running joke to something that actually sees table time.
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Post by anderfreak on Aug 3, 2017 22:10:26 GMT
If you're not having fun knowing that changes are being made in the background, then pretend they aren't. Just wait for the erratas like you used to in Mk2, when the two biggest problem models in the game took 4 years to errata.
Also, PP doesn't owe us an apology. The fact that they HAVE given one at all proves how committed they are to making the game fun for everyone.
If you're STILL not having fun even after PP has made so many concessions for us, maybe you should reconsider playing the game. Maybe it's not Mk3 you have a problem with, maybe it's just the design philosophy of the game you really don't enjoy. No one is forcing you to play it. The fluff will always still be there if that still entertains you, and there are plenty of other great wargames around with communities I KNOW are dying for new players.
I don't say this to be a jerk. I genuinely don't understand why someone would force themselves to continue indulging a hobby they aren't having fun with.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 3, 2017 22:14:08 GMT
If you're not having fun knowing that changes are being made in the background, then pretend they aren't. Just wait for the erratas like you used to in Mk2, when the two biggest problem models in the game took 4 years to errata. Also, PP doesn't owe us an apology. The fact that they HAVE given one at all proves how committed they are to making the game fun for everyone. If you're STILL not having fun even after PP has made so many concessions for us, maybe you should reconsider playing the game. Maybe it's not Mk3 you have a problem with, maybe it's just the design philosophy of the game you really don't enjoy. No one is forcing you to play it. The fluff will always still be there if that still entertains you, and there are plenty of other great wargames around with communities I KNOW are dying for new players. I don't say this to be a jerk. I genuinely don't understand why someone would force themselves to continue indulging a hobby they aren't having fun with. Maybe you mistake my passion for making the game better to mean I don't have fun playing the game. I still have fun, and overall its an enjoyable experience. But there are some major flaws, and I will point them out and campaign to fix them till they get fixed.
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Post by Swampmist on Aug 3, 2017 22:55:04 GMT
If you still have an open emotional wound from Privateer Press not being "open to criticism and admitting they made mistakes" I suggest talking to friends, getting counseling, or moving on. welp, looks like i'm adding another rule today. If I see someone implying a mental condition in another member over saltiness again, I'm slamming the Firetrucker with the banhammer and being done with it.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 3, 2017 22:57:32 GMT
If PP stops making new products, they die. Not releasing game variants and new models to pour more effort into cid (which probably nets them less money from purchases than new releases do) makes no business sense. Then again, errata-ing something bad to be good is effectively a new release, especially if it's always been bad. Look at how Triumph went from being a running joke to something that actually sees table time. Cough*Destors*Cough
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Aug 4, 2017 0:03:21 GMT
If PP stops making new products, they die. Not releasing game variants and new models to pour more effort into cid (which probably nets them less money from purchases than new releases do) makes no business sense. Then again, errata-ing something bad to be good is effectively a new release, especially if it's always been bad. Look at how Triumph went from being a running joke to something that actually sees table time. Yes-ish, but a lot of people owned triumph before he got gud. A lot of people own gun mages who are bad now, if they get cid treatment then they aren't effectively a new release. There is less of a return on ciding models, even ones that have always been bad, because a lot of people buy models for reasons other than competitiveness.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 4, 2017 0:33:09 GMT
I'd say more people bought Triumph after he got gud than bought him before.
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