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Post by gobber on Aug 12, 2017 2:34:43 GMT
So most lists these days are skewed towards high armour and boxes. This usually comes in the form of large battle groups or multi wound models that can achieve a high armour. That is the meta. Sure there are a small number of exceptions to that, but not many. I'd have agreed with you a couple months ago, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. One heavy arm/box list will appear in most every pairing, but infantry swarms of many varieties are definitely back. I know of at least four people in my area newly playing cephalyx. In a month all bets are off with the deluge of themes. |
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 13, 2017 5:39:33 GMT
I think a good question for OW 1 is can she effectively deal with ghost fleet? I really like her and want to make her work.
I think she won't win attrition nor scenario, but I don't think either are discounted out right. Her assassination game is better than denny 1, possibly. A 20" threat range is really nice.
Her feat would stop most of the enemy models except for incorporeal. I think making this magical damage wouldn't be asking for too much in a future CID, but that is neither here nor there.
Incorporeal and RFP are important threats that needs answering. She does not have access to easy RFP, and attrition is not the goal. As for incorporeal we have a couple answers
OW1 herself has great magical infantry killing capabilities. She can go in beserk/overtake and teleport back to scrappy to be safe. If you go out of theme with doomies, giving them def 15 through clouds. The new theme also helps out here. You can also run her with JAWS for the behemoth forge seer combos, magical pow 16 guns.
I don't know the best answer, and the new theme could shake things up a bit.
Murder of crows is also handy at denying charge lanes, killing incorporeal and providing stealth on OW.
I think her best advantage is the 20" assassination. You have plenty of souls to gather, you just need a proper way to clear a temporary path to near denny 1. You could even overtake your way to her.
Do you think OW1 can do it?
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Post by Netherby on Aug 13, 2017 16:57:17 GMT
Oh I absolutely think she can play strongly into Ghost Fleet.
She is quite safe from their main assassination mechanics with Stealth. She should also be able to set up to deny Denny getting a good feat turn by getting into threat range and feating herself. Denny then either has to counter feat and not be able to move most of her army (you can use Murder of Crows to hinder the Black Banes as well) or has to risk losing a large amount of her army on the next turn. In either case it's going to relieve scenario pressure on you.
I don't think she want's to run in any of our current themes. She may as well be taking Ternion for clouds to trigger prowl and for sprays to help deal with Incorporeals. This means she could look at Mercs to provide some RFP.
The real question for me is what army composition can she have that will work well into Ghost Fleet and Dark Host while also giving her some play into other match ups.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 14, 2017 1:23:05 GMT
Oh I absolutely think she can play strongly into Ghost Fleet. She is quite safe from their main assassination mechanics with Stealth. She should also be able to set up to deny Denny getting a good feat turn by getting into threat range and feating herself. Denny then either has to counter feat and not be able to move most of her army (you can use Murder of Crows to hinder the Black Banes as well) or has to risk losing a large amount of her army on the next turn. In either case it's going to relieve scenario pressure on you. I don't think she want's to run in any of our current themes. She may as well be taking Ternion for clouds to trigger prowl and for sprays to help deal with Incorporeals. This means she could look at Mercs to provide some RFP. The real question for me is what army composition can she have that will work well into Ghost Fleet and Dark Host while also giving her some play into other match ups. I agree, i'm not sure she runs wells with any of our current themes of either. I think JAWs gets the most work out of her. More jacks gets the most use out of pathfinder and apparition. While leaving her to deal with infantry. Bringing low model count infantry than can rely on themselves is helpful too. Not too informed what it takes to counter dark host, but would JAWs work here? I think she could be really useful with the new mad dogs theme, excited for that. I just played a game vs Legion Ravens of war using this, went pretty well. War Room Army Khador - Shack In The Woods Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army The Old Witch of Khador - WJ: +18 - Scrapjack - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Behemoth - PC: 25 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf |
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Post by Netherby on Aug 14, 2017 1:39:54 GMT
I wouldn't get too excited for Mad Dogs yet. I agree it may eventually be good with her and will probably have some mercenary options (since Valachev is a Grey Lord). But I have strong doubts about it being any good before it goes thought CID and the new models for it are added.
Dark Host is the 'Moer Baenz' theme. Generally not something you want to go into jack heavy since they rip jacks apart, though the Assassins and Eliminators are decent into them. Maybe a reworked list with Assassins and Marshalled Behemoth...
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 14, 2017 2:55:49 GMT
I had been thinking about including a full unit of assassins+ua or two min units. I just don't own the models. A max unit could run well with murder of crows and iron flesh, 15/14 with stealth seems okay.
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Post by khador0932 on Aug 19, 2017 19:43:57 GMT
So I played 2 games with Old Witch today, both in Legion of Steel. The idea being that she is innately quite strong against the stuff Legion doesn't like to see, and if nothing else Legion is strong on scenario and she has good tools to help with that. Both of my games were over by the bottom of turn 3, so I'll give a quick recap of how it went.
My list was:
Old Witch
-Scrapjack
-Kodiak
-Kodiak
-War Dog
5 Iron Fang Uhlans
5 Iron Fang Uhlans
10 Black Dragon Iron Fang Pikemen w/UA
The Great Bears
Kovnik Markov
Iron Fang Kovnik
Iron Fang Kovnik
My first game I was playing against Trolls, with the new Northkin theme. Lots of little infantry guys, Rok, a brawler, an axer and the battle engine. I won first, pushed up really aggressively and dropped AMoC on the top of 1 to deny the AD unit running straight ahead. Pushed up hard due to the very limited bottom of 1 ranged presence. My opponent shimmied and shuffled to be in position to contest next turn. I pushed up all my toys, killing as much as I could safely with my cav before repositioning backwards, I used AMoC and a rock to make life very awkward for the battle engine and feated. My opponent contested with his axer and hooch hauler. In my turn I killed both and scored 4 CPs for killing his objective. He killed all my pikemen and a couple Uhlans, then my 2 Kodiaks threw 2 solos out of a zone and Old Witch ran scrapjack behind Rok and double gallowsed him out the zone for the 5-0.
My second game went much the same way. This time vs Kreoss3 with a bunch of exemplars. Turn 1 I put AMOC down in front of his errants, he mosied up, force hammered a Kodiak, killing a Kovnik and one great bear. I pushed up really hard and feated, killed his arc node, blocked LoS with Crows and asked the same question as last game "how do you contest without losing?". My opponent just conceded.
She seems really good when she goes first. Also engaging non reach models with reach crit KD IFP on the feat turn is hilarious. Don't get me wrong, she's much worse vs battlegroup heavy armies, but Legion likes seeing those a lot more, and Gallows and AMoC are good tools for fighting those kinds of lists. I'm going to keep testing her out!
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Post by benjamini on Aug 22, 2017 15:12:49 GMT
Interesting, I hadn't thought to try her in Legion of Steel (that being said, I don't play legion of steel all that much anyway due to only owning 1 unit of Pikes and 1 unit of Uhlans)
How did you find she was able to deal with armor with that list? I always feel a little pillowfisted if I don't have at least a juggy around with her.
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Post by khador0932 on Aug 22, 2017 15:32:03 GMT
Interesting, I hadn't thought to try her in Legion of Steel (that being said, I don't play legion of steel all that much anyway due to only owning 1 unit of Pikes and 1 unit of Uhlans) How did you find she was able to deal with armor with that list? I always feel a little pillowfisted if I don't have at least a juggy around with her. It's Legion of Steel, armour hasn't been a problem so far.  I haven't run into any really crazy things that skew armour but if I thought they would drop those I probably wouldn't drop the Old Witch. As it is Legion certainly has the hitting power and precision strike-ness to go through even an entire battlegroup list, as long as it doesn't start reliably pushing past arm 21. |
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785 
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Post by wendan on Aug 27, 2017 17:42:20 GMT
Oh man she is so awesome!
I love her out of theme against infantry spam. Just give her AoS and watch her get all the souls! Then the other caster is dead!
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Post by Netherby on Aug 28, 2017 5:33:04 GMT
I think she should be decent in LegoS, but not a typical list. She wants to go with two units of Uhlans instead of pikes.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Aug 28, 2017 10:24:34 GMT
Last time I ran her, it was out of theme with one unit of black dragons, all the solos, and some jacks. That seemed to go well. Next I plan to try her with solos, shockies, and AK's.
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Post by Netherby on Aug 28, 2017 22:31:24 GMT
I played her with Shokies, but it was into Haley2 and it was that scenario where all the scoring stuff is in the middle of the table... I just got crushed on scenario because my army was too slow  They could have won turn 3 but didn't see it. If I had positioned better MAYBE I could have prevented them wining turn 4 and clawed it back some how... But this reinforced my thoughts on MoWs just being too slow for OW1 list. |
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Post by benjamini on Aug 29, 2017 15:18:26 GMT
I tried Shockies with OW 1 into Grymkin a couple weeks ago and it ended up doing pretty well. I found I was able to move up the table and contest zones pretty easily. One thing I wasn't doing though was getting there first  , but between old witch herself and the shockies I was able to hold the zone pretty handily. It may be that they are too slow, but it still seems good on paper. Game really made me with Gallows was more consistent though |
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Post by Netherby on Aug 30, 2017 3:04:14 GMT
Well, it depends on the scenario and stuff. The speed of MoW can make it difficult to contest all the zones before they can score, then if they have a way to keep you out with jamming or feats that can be game over right there.
Gallows being inconsistent is actually good. If it was 'push model x"' then your opponent would just position x" back. When it's d6", well no one is likely to decide to position back 6" but that means a double gallows or even single could end up getting them. You just have to do the gallows first thing and not plan a whole turn around it doing what you want.
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I haven't run into any really crazy things that skew armour but if I thought they would drop those I probably wouldn't drop the Old Witch. As it is Legion certainly has the hitting power and precision strike-ness to go through even an entire battlegroup list, as long as it doesn't start reliably pushing past arm 21. 
, but between old witch herself and the shockies I was able to hold the zone pretty handily. It may be that they are too slow, but it still seems good on paper.