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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 26, 2017 20:36:48 GMT
Why do you rate Horgle2 that low in BoH? No runebearer and no real synergy with most models? Sure, there are some synergies (like champions doing two boosted attacks on the feat turn), but mostly i see no reason at all to play BoH with Horgle 2. Maybe i am missing something? Ok, no Runebearer I understand, but where is the better synergy in other themes? CoD for example? Sure, his beasts may charge for free, but there are as few models that bear continous fire attacks as in BoH. Maybe I don´t understand Horgle2 and his gameplan, but to me it seems that he can run beasts as well as units due to the fact that he can give out continous fire attacks to just one beast (2 if you cicle) and he has a spell on his own to do so. Meaning he can just use himself and 2 beasts to enable his feat if played in CoD.
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Post by Trollock on Jul 26, 2017 21:05:40 GMT
No runebearer and no real synergy with most models? Sure, there are some synergies (like champions doing two boosted attacks on the feat turn), but mostly i see no reason at all to play BoH with Horgle 2. Maybe i am missing something? Ok, no Runebearer I understand, but where is the better synergy in other themes? CoD for example? Sure, his beasts may charge for free, but there are as few models that bear continous fire attacks as in BoH. Maybe I don´t understand Horgle2 and his gameplan, but to me it seems that he can run beasts as well as units due to the fact that he can give out continous fire attacks to just one beast (2 if you cicle) and he has a spell on his own to do so. Meaning he can just use himself and 2 beasts to enable his feat if played in CoD. The times i have played Horgel 2, i used Fire Starter on a bomber. He can "light up" two heavies easily enough. Then you have the runebearer who can cast the fire AoE to "light up" another heavy if need be. Any light beast will do incredible damage to a heavy if all its attacks are boosted. Beasts benefit a lot more from the feat than infantry does, because infantry usually have only one attack and the damage is often boosted from charging. Beasts benefit a lot from the free boost on their extra initial and brought attacks though. Ranged units also benefit greatly from boosted attacks. They usually have lower RAT than the average MAT (no fell caller for ranged attacks) so boosted hit rolls is usually more relevant. They also do not get boosted damage on their ranged weapons under normal circumstances, but with Horgles feat up, a unit os sluggers will obliterate most heavies. Therefore he has some great synergy with KC and SotN since they have access to good ranged units. He also has Solid Ground that is really good for protecting low ARM troops from blasts. BoH focuses on high ARM troops with lots of wounds, so they do not care much about Solid Ground. The more nimble troops of KC or SotN really like the blast immunity though. To me it is obvious that Horgle 2 has very little synergy with BoH but a lot more in the other themes.
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 26, 2017 22:27:20 GMT
Thanks for your answer!
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jul 27, 2017 3:27:01 GMT
Interesting exercise and thank you for the time put in! Great reference for new players! Since there's not a single '5' rating for BoH, does that mean we're waiting for just the right new warlock?
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 7:39:17 GMT
Interesting exercise and thank you for the time put in! Great reference for new players! Since there's not a single '5' rating for BoH, does that mean we're waiting for just the right new warlock? I think the theme is poorly designed and that is why no caster really likes it. Some tweaks and it quickly become a strong theme, but right now, it is a mess imo.
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Post by allinontrolls on Jul 27, 2017 9:03:15 GMT
In my opinion boh struggles cause of our infantry was not that good. The current cid version with the buff to champs and long rider and redesign of madrak1 boh is really nice.
+2 deployment zone is always good Rfp + ignoring tough is also really important in certain Matchups(gf,cats...)
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 12:36:28 GMT
It has potential for sure. i just hate the fact that you only get free points for multi wound models, but you still have to bring a stone, and you really want to bring fennblades with many casters. Champions are still awful if they get charged so they need a screen of some kind imo.
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Post by allinontrolls on Jul 27, 2017 13:25:27 GMT
Vs a melee force champs def 14 base +2 def arcane ward. So hitting def16 should be really nice.
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes
(Borka 1) Borka Kegslayer [+28] - Rok [19] - Troll Bouncer [9] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Long Riders (max) [20] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [0(5)] Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15] - Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5] Trollkin Warders (min) [10]
As an example.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 27, 2017 14:36:59 GMT
Feels odd to say, but I think I'd go Chronicler over fell Caller in that list.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 27, 2017 15:14:10 GMT
I love Band of Heroes, but for now, the only reason to run it is to beat gunlines, especially Ghost Fleet. That said, I do think I'd rate Calandra and the Grissels at 4 in Band. Grissel 1 and calandra both miss out on a super sweet runebearer though. Grissel 2 is not as bothered, but what does she really do for BoH in particular? feels like she supports things that need help hitting more than anything and BoH has high MAT in general. She can play it just fine, but that is mostly because she is awesome and has very little to do with BoH... Grissel 1 and Calandra are both helped much by the RB, yes, but there are positives, and IIRC the Devs have said that Band will gain access to the RB and maybe a couple other things. All those weapon masters and cavalry on Calandra's feat turn can be amazing. Granted, that works better now in Northkin, but it really was a reason to play her in Band. Also, Star Crossed with Champs at DEF 14 in melee. Grissel 1, of course, has Hoof It and Ballad, which can also be very strong on Champs and Long Riders. As for Grissel 2, her feat grants both Reposition and Unyielding- Repo can get the Champs back into b2b after a big charge and UY can keep them standing and get more use out of Ret Strikes. Dash can be a huge help for a SPD 5 list, especially on top of +2 Deploy. Deflection can make most of the list DEF 14 at range, which will cause a few more misses, especially for rockets and rifles who can't CRA.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 27, 2017 15:23:09 GMT
Why do you rate Horgle2 that low in BoH? No runebearer and no real synergy with most models? Sure, there are some synergies (like champions doing two boosted attacks on the feat turn), but mostly i see no reason at all to play BoH with Horgle 2. Maybe i am missing something? Also, Horgle 2 has 3 upkeeps and needs help with that, so he's really pushed toward POD or Northkin. He has very good synergies in Kriel Company and can help its damage output. That one does not help his upkeeps but does increase his odds of going first, so he might have an easier time getting upkeeps out. I do think that his synergies in Storm of the North are very good and I might rate him at a 5 there, and really anything he can do in Band he can do better in Storm.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 27, 2017 15:30:11 GMT
anything he can do in Band he can do better in Storm. That's exactly what I was mentioning earlier. I saw a few 1s that I thought were maybe 2-3s (double Fennblades in BOH with no knockdown/blast damage from Horgle2 could be better than a 1 maybe) but it's obviously SO MUCH BETTER to take him in SotN with the same effect on higher def, AD Raiders and free upkeeps that it being a 2 doesn't matter. Nobody should take him in BoH once SotN comes out IMO... so a 1 there made enough sense for me.
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 19:04:52 GMT
Maybe BoH will get a runebearer and maybe all units will count towards free points. All of a sudden it is a REALLY good theme for many casters. Right now it is basically just a worse SotN that is great against one match up (ghost fleet) and since that one match up is so damned hard, we still some times play BoH. I really do not like the design.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Jul 27, 2017 19:20:13 GMT
Fingers crossed for Fenns to count towards BoH points. I love all the pieces that are in BoH and if it existed in Mk2, it'd be all I played probably.
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Jul 27, 2017 19:36:09 GMT
Is BoH, really that good into Ghost Fleet? Assuming the Denny1 build, I can't see how any of our units don't get A.) Shot off the board, or B.) Crippled by debuffs. Sure the RFP is great, but I can't see enough of it getting there.
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