faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
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Post by faelin on Jul 26, 2017 5:18:05 GMT
I probably wouldn't proxy anything in a big regional tournament, but my local group is big on proxying. I dont mind if people proxy one model for another, or even use empty bases.
I do appreciate when they label the bases if they are proxying many things. Just with tape/paper works well enough. Trying to keep track of which large base is which can be difficult for me.
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Post by beardmonk on Jul 26, 2017 7:44:24 GMT
It really depends IMO. I played an awful game recently where a guy wanted to play a Khador jack list but had none of the actual jacks he needed. So it was "well this jack body sprayed brown is Ruin", and "this jack body turned around and sprayed grey is a clam jack" etc etc. I played the game out of politeness but I couldn't tell what model was really which and the whole experience was quite depressing. Is a general rule I don't proxy any model in my army. If I want to use a model, I will buy it. Also, in about 80% of occasions I will also not play a model on the tabletop until I have painted it. For steamroller you will need all the PP models that comply to the conversion rules (which are restrictive) and they will need to be painted. #playitpainted #liesandslander Base steam roller rules say you only need to have the models completely assembled in order to play. You should play painted because it looks cool not because you think you have to. Having read your response and re-read SR2017 I stand corrected! Personally, I would impose a painting level on SR tournaments in the same way PP does at its larger cons, L&L etc. But that's a different topic than the one under discussion here which is about proxing. I allow minimum proxying in certain circumstances in casual play or when a person is getting into the game and is making their first few purchases.
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Post by Tekanan on Jul 26, 2017 15:44:44 GMT
Reason I'm asking, I picked up the Hallowmen for Grymkins. Theoretically, if I were to play you, would you allow me to run them as Cygnar Trencher Infantry, or possibly Steelhead Riflemen? Would a conversion help? Such as swapping the heads for a full head cover helmet? I play casually and I'd allow this, only if a conversion to make it look like trencher infantries or steelhead riflemen were done. Tip: If you convert, you'd likely stand out. Not many people I know play with converted minis in WM, and I believe this trend extends worldwide.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 26, 2017 16:00:36 GMT
but they're also not significantly altered from the Mindbender Drudges (which aren't available to Cryx, but are very similar to the Drudge unit that IS available). Casually I'm sure no one would mind, but at a larger tournament, especially a provincial one, I wonder if anyone would say they aren't kosher. I've considered adding a forehead spike or similar head weaponry, and maybe chopping off the legs to give them satyr legs or digitigrade hooves of some kind. I think that's the major stumbling block for this conversion, the existence of another Drudge unit for Cryx. Outside of casual games, I'd say the additional conversion would be the safest option.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 26, 2017 19:50:50 GMT
but they're also not significantly altered from the Mindbender Drudges (which aren't available to Cryx, but are very similar to the Drudge unit that IS available). Casually I'm sure no one would mind, but at a larger tournament, especially a provincial one, I wonder if anyone would say they aren't kosher. I've considered adding a forehead spike or similar head weaponry, and maybe chopping off the legs to give them satyr legs or digitigrade hooves of some kind. I think that's the major stumbling block for this conversion, the existence of another Drudge unit for Cryx. Outside of casual games, I'd say the additional conversion would be the safest option. There is no other Drudge unit in Cryx...
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 26, 2017 23:39:52 GMT
I think that's the major stumbling block for this conversion, the existence of another Drudge unit for Cryx. Outside of casual games, I'd say the additional conversion would be the safest option. There is no other Drudge unit in Cryx... For the record, I meant the actual Drudge unit allowed in Cryx.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jul 27, 2017 4:37:31 GMT
Having read your response and re-read SR2017 I stand corrected! Personally, I would impose a painting level on SR tournaments in the same way PP does at its larger cons, L&L etc. But that's a different topic than the one under discussion here which is about proxing. I allow minimum proxying in certain circumstances in casual play or when a person is getting into the game and is making their first few purchases. There are variants in the SR2017 package for painting requirements. Painting is also required for Champions, but not Masters. Also, even in the baseline, painting is pretty strongly encouraged, as well as having a Best Painted award at steamrollers. While I know some people who would strongly disagree with this statement, I think one could make a pretty solid argument that while it's not mandatory, fully painted is how the game is intended to be and should ideally be played. For me, I'm at the point where I'm almost always fully painted, and just about the only time I use proxies are when I forget to pack a model, the model is otherwise unavailable, or very rarely if I have a model that I really really want to try out but it is on my paint table and I don't want to risk damaging an unsealed model. But I recognize that that has taken me a while to get to that point with just one faction. If you are using proxies, though, etiquette demands that you try to limit it so it is easier for your opponent, and to use models that are kind of similar. For example, if you're using a bunch of spearmen to proxy for dudes with guns, that can be a lot more confusing than if you're using one type of dudes with guns to proxy for another. Also, keeping it to a reasonable number (like, max two or three models/units) makes it much easier for your opponent to keep track of.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Jul 27, 2017 8:43:20 GMT
There are variants in the SR2017 package for painting requirements. Painting is also required for Champions, but not Masters. Also, even in the baseline, painting is pretty strongly encouraged, as well as having a Best Painted award at steamrollers. While I know some people who would strongly disagree with this statement, I think one could make a pretty solid argument that while it's not mandatory, fully painted is how the game is intended to be and should ideally be played.Let's please not have that discussion. You can't tell me how to enjoy my free time, and I won't tell you how to enjoy yours. Deal? Regarding proxies - I am with everyone above, only in casual play, and only if it's sparingly or for a special reason. If you are 100% always proxying something, I will get frustrated that you don't just buy the real model. One of the reasons why I enjoy WMH over GW is that the model is always the model is always the model with the same rules. It makes things faster and easier to play.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jul 27, 2017 14:14:51 GMT
Let's please not have that discussion. You can't tell me how to enjoy my free time, and I won't tell you how to enjoy yours. Deal? Feel free to take it up with PP; I'm not the one who wrote in the organized play documents (Steamroller, Champions, etc.) that painting is encouraged even when it isn't mandatory.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 27, 2017 15:25:59 GMT
Let's please not have that discussion. You can't tell me how to enjoy my free time, and I won't tell you how to enjoy yours. Deal? Feel free to take it up with PP; I'm not the one who wrote in the organized play documents (Steamroller, Champions, etc.) that painting is encouraged even when it isn't mandatory. PP sells painting products. They'd be idiots not to encourage players to paint. I'm fairly sure the only reason it's not generally required (like it is for Guildball) is the size of armies used at events. Two 75-point lists is a lot to paint up.
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Post by catulle on Jul 28, 2017 0:29:49 GMT
Fine with it so long as there's zero confusion (if we're playing on clock, for example, I'd much rather have labelled bases or cross-faction-within-the-same-role-proxies than "these legionnaires are really swordsmen") for the first few times, with leeway if you're having stock troubles (hey, Sentry Stones and Woldwyrds!) from your LGS.
For actual tourneys or league events, play the right damn models if there are prizes on the line.
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Post by AdeptusB on Jul 28, 2017 1:56:27 GMT
Tip: If you convert, you'd likely stand out. Not many people I know play with converted minis in WM, and I believe this trend extends worldwide. Pirate Reinholdt sez "Of course I stand out- I'm awesome!"
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 30, 2017 15:05:55 GMT
Absolutly yes, but only for conversions and alternative models. Proxies - never! I hate playing with proxies since my WFB days ("these Bretonnian Archers' legs are Skink skirmishers and those horses without tails and riders are Saurus cavalry") I own a lot of alternative models, though as I like using my good knowledge of different wargaming ranges to find models that I find the most interesting (or sometimes, affordable) for a given unit in a given wargame. I always respect WYSIWYG with those, and convert whatever is necessary. So for example my alternative Exemplar Errants are templar knight type models with swords, shields and crossbows, while my Daughters of the Flame are fantasy nuns with twin daggers. I've never had anyone complain or really have problem identifying any of my models, even when they were seeing my army for the first time. I, personally, find unpainted armies much more confusing in-game and for the life of Menoth can't imagine how anyone can manage to play mirror matches with unpainted armies oO So in short : WYSIWYG conversions or alternate models- Yes, please! Proxies or blank bases - Please, play someone else. EDIT: WM&H has something that other systems may lack - the same character with different iterations. I am in general ok about using another version of a caster, especially when it isn't that different when it comes to equipment (like Sorsha1-2 or Makeda 1-2 or Sevvy 1-2 etc). I just consider the caster I play against such a key piece of info that when I hear it in the beginning of the match I don't forget it
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jul 30, 2017 21:11:59 GMT
EDIT: WM&H has something that other systems may lack - the same character with different iterations. I am in general ok about using another version of a caster, especially when it isn't that different when it comes to equipment (like Sorsha1-2 or Makeda 1-2 or Sevvy 1-2 etc). I just consider the caster I play against such a key piece of info that when I hear it in the beginning of the match I don't forget it It's just interesting that proxying one version of a caster for another is actively misleading for the brain. If you are wanting to use the Sorscha 2 rules but you are using the Sorscha 1 model, then the model you are using is actively signalling "This is Sorscha 1". If you were using a space marine instead, at least it wouldn't be sending any misleading signals. But you are probably right that in practice it won't be an issue most of the time.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 31, 2017 8:09:11 GMT
Hey, wishing! As I said I find proxies confusing (and hurt aesthetics so much!) but when it comes to casters, they are so important that once I learn at the beginning of the match who I am playing against, it gets so fixed in my brain that playing a slightly different model* won't make me forget it. *-I really see no difference between Sorscha 1 and 2 model to be honest
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