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Post by harcos on Jul 22, 2017 23:46:53 GMT
Casual player, and first time posting.
Would it be acceptable to use rules different than what the models came with? As long as the models looked the part.
Reason I'm asking, I picked up the Hallowmen for Grymkins. Theoretically, if I were to play you, would you allow me to run them as Cygnar Trencher Infantry, or possibly Steelhead Riflemen? Would a conversion help? Such as swapping the heads for a full head cover helmet?
I'm used to the 40k community, where conversion work is encouraged to a degree, and as long as its easily identifiable, its often not a concern. Though my experience in the Warmachine community is localized only.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 22, 2017 23:58:54 GMT
You legally can only use very particular conversions in Steamroller. But it honestly depends on the person. Typically if you are very clear about who you are proxying the model(s) most people don't mind casually. I even have some actual rocks I use as shifting stones that I've been using since I started the game and only one person made a comment about it in a negative way. Most people thought it was funny. (I also have actual shifting stones just in case I can't get away with the rocks but I only play local events.
In this game proxying is typically the best way to test out a list before you commit to buying it.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 23, 2017 3:01:34 GMT
I am totally OK with proxies. If you use proxy models, try to do the following:
1. Use the most appropriate models you can. If the models you want your proxies to represent don't have guns, try to not use models with guns. 2. Ask your opponent if it is OK. It probably is, but ask to make sure. 3. Be gracious if they are not OK with your proxies. If no agreement can be reached, just try to get a game elsewhere, but be politw about it. 4. Make absolutely sure that your opponent knows what each proxy represents, and suggest that they look at the card. 5. If you like the model that you are proxying after several games, consider buying the real model. (If money is tight, then don't worry about this.)
Have fun!
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Post by GreatBigTree on Jul 23, 2017 5:23:47 GMT
My friends proxy constantly in 40k. I don't mind it, but there's no prizes or anything on the line so if I don't remember that this unit had a Plasmagun, and that unit had a Flamer, it's not that big of a deal and we tend to allow take-backs as a matter of course.
But at a tournament? No.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jul 23, 2017 8:18:02 GMT
Generally speaking, my impression is that there is a different culture in WM than in GW games with regards to "accuracy" of the miniatures we use. As in, proxying and heavy conversions are viewed with more scepticism in WM than in 40k. I think there are a couple of reasons for this.
- WM has a much stronger focus on competition and less on creativity. - WM for its first many many years had conversion guidelines for tournaments that were quite strict, only allowing you to slightly modify the original model, but not use a different model as a basis for example. Therefore, when people got creative with conversions, usually there would always be a discussion whether the conversion was "tournament legal" or not. And people tended to not like it when others pointed out that their conversions weren't tournament legal. - WM has a strict correlation between correct card = correct model, which does not exist in 40k. In WM you can instantly tell whether you are using the correct model with a given card or not (or at least you were originally supposed to).
The best answer though is always that how acceptable your conversions/proxies will be will depend on two things.
1. Who you want to use them with. 2. How much effort you put into them.
The first point means that if you just play with your local friends, and your friends don't care, then of course it is acceptable. However, if you go to a high profile tournament where PP will want to take pictures of your army in case you win, then expect to be held to a very hard standard or have your models disqualified.
The second point means that people always accept conversions more if 1) they look gorgeous, and 2) it is clear that you have spent lots of effort on it. If you simply take unpainted and unmodified Hollowmen and say "These are Trenchers", then that's a straight-up proxy and will only be allowed in tournaments that completely ignore model guidelines, and it will most likely seem like you are only doing it because you don't have the Trencher models. However, if you convert all the models with headswaps and paint them up to look like Trenchers, and they look really cool, then people will appreciate that and be much more likely to accept them in the game, including tournament organisers.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 23, 2017 8:57:51 GMT
My meta is very cash-strapped and I encourage the use of proxies before the less experienced players make expensive purchases. (in this meta, a single heavy kit is an expensive purchase to some players)
In my own case, I'm a slow painter, so I use proxies in casual games while I'm painting key models.
In a competition, no. Use the right model or things get too confusing.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 23, 2017 9:44:19 GMT
As for strict tournament rules, the conversions have to be made mostly of PP models, and to be clear enought that if you call the Tournament Organizer, show him your model and ask "What is this?" he should be able to identify your target conversion without help.
That said, in casual play is usually fine to proxy or convert, as long as you are clear on what are you proxying with your opponent. It's also a good way to try different casters and lists for new players before committing in buying the ones they like more.
As always, it all depends on who you play with and what are the gaming conventions of your group.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 23, 2017 18:45:23 GMT
Golden rule: If your conversion looks cool, nobody will complain. Just using a model as another model is not a cool conversion though and should generally be avoided.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 25, 2017 11:48:24 GMT
I say, it depends.
If the tournament is not run by PP, then it depends from the TO. If there is no official sponsorship, no endorsement, nothing, then TO is king. He can allow anything he wants, anything he thinks right for the community.
I say, do come with replacement and conversions as long as that's not a excuse to proxy a entire army.
Do you want to make iron fangs pikemens with Stormcasts? As long as they have pikes and looks cool, by all means do it.
Do you want to convert a character jack from a normal jack chassis since that characters are so bloody expensive? You're most welcome.
So do what you want as long as you put the effort in, the time, the passion.
If you spare some money in the process, even better.
But coming with some space marines and say: these are widowmakers, hell no. It will cause confusion. If you want widowmakers, take even a world war sniper and give him a fuzzy hat or camo mantle. I will accept it, since it will not cause confusion.
I'm not there to sell PP models, I'm there to ensure people are having fun and the best player win, not the one with deeper pockets.
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Post by beardmonk on Jul 25, 2017 12:28:15 GMT
It really depends IMO.
I played an awful game recently where a guy wanted to play a Khador jack list but had none of the actual jacks he needed. So it was "well this jack body sprayed brown is Ruin", and "this jack body turned around and sprayed grey is a clam jack" etc etc. I played the game out of politeness but I couldn't tell what model was really which and the whole experience was quite depressing.
Is a general rule I don't proxy any model in my army. If I want to use a model, I will buy it. Also, in about 80% of occasions I will also not play a model on the tabletop until I have painted it. For steamroller you will need all the PP models that comply to the conversion rules (which are restrictive) and they will need to be painted.
#playitpainted
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 25, 2017 13:00:26 GMT
It really depends IMO. I played an awful game recently where a guy wanted to play a Khador jack list but had none of the actual jacks he needed. So it was "well this jack body sprayed brown is Ruin", and "this jack body turned around and sprayed grey is a clam jack" etc etc. I played the game out of politeness but I couldn't tell what model was really which and the whole experience was quite depressing. Is a general rule I don't proxy any model in my army. If I want to use a model, I will buy it. Also, in about 80% of occasions I will also not play a model on the tabletop until I have painted it. For steamroller you will need all the PP models that comply to the conversion rules (which are restrictive) and they will need to be painted. #playitpainted #liesandslander Base steam roller rules say you only need to have the models completely assembled in order to play. You should play painted because it looks cool not because you think you have to.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 25, 2017 17:40:41 GMT
It really depends IMO. I played an awful game recently where a guy wanted to play a Khador jack list but had none of the actual jacks he needed. So it was "well this jack body sprayed brown is Ruin", and "this jack body turned around and sprayed grey is a clam jack" etc etc. I played the game out of politeness but I couldn't tell what model was really which and the whole experience was quite depressing. Is a general rule I don't proxy any model in my army. If I want to use a model, I will buy it. Also, in about 80% of occasions I will also not play a model on the tabletop until I have painted it. For steamroller you will need all the PP models that comply to the conversion rules (which are restrictive) and they will need to be painted. #playitpainted #liesandslander Base steam roller rules say you only need to have the models completely assembled in order to play. You should play painted because it looks cool not because you think you have to. I think that there is a format that requires painting and basing. I want to say masters, but I'm not certain. It's definitely not Steamroller.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jul 25, 2017 19:14:21 GMT
Hardcore?
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Post by pangurban on Jul 25, 2017 22:18:26 GMT
Iron Gauntlet. Not Masters.
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Post by tarviche on Jul 25, 2017 23:52:35 GMT
I'm curious how people feel about one of the "conversions" I've done (which is very basic, really)--I really strongly dislike the Satyxis models and general aesthetic, so I took Cephalyx Drudges and gave them Lacerators instead.
I feel like they're distinct from other units and the whips really stand out, but they're also not significantly altered from the Mindbender Drudges (which aren't available to Cryx, but are very similar to the Drudge unit that IS available). Casually I'm sure no one would mind, but at a larger tournament, especially a provincial one, I wonder if anyone would say they aren't kosher.
I've considered adding a forehead spike or similar head weaponry, and maybe chopping off the legs to give them satyr legs or digitigrade hooves of some kind.
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