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Post by skathrex on Jul 20, 2017 7:57:35 GMT
Well...or not? I didn't find any thread that suffiecently answered my question. I know we used to have the KGBs, but they are a bit outdated and don't have an active discussion thread attached to them anymore. So I will get to the point. For a long time I tried to avoid the Butchers because of their reputation, Backround and mostly because of the simliarity to Khorne, which I played a lot of in my 40k days. But because of Ghost Fleet and other factors I recently picked up Butcher3 and have to say I actually quite like him. He is way more complex than I initially thought he would be and...well...I am just a Axe to the face kinda guy I guess. (plus I really like when my casters actively contribute to the fight) That said I find he builds rather straight forward, so thats not the question for me. I currently play this list to drop into Cryx and maybe Cygnar: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0fdI7q7s7teQ8t867Z7-7Y7Wi6Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand (Butcher 3) Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Devastator [14] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [10] - Ruin [17] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0(4)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] My question is, what is Butcher3 good into? What are the matchups he likes to play? Does this list work into Cygnar at all? Since his support is somewhat limited I am not sure what to play him into. Second list would be something like this, but I pair him with a Strakov1 jaws list, so i would like to avoid playing 2 jaws themed lists: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0xdI7q7s7teQhF7whF8r8G8G8eKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Butcher 3) Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Devastator [14] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [10] - Ruin [17] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Behemoth [25] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Care to share your experiences? |
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163 
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Post by zeffid on Jul 20, 2017 10:17:25 GMT
I think Butcher wants to avoid gunlines. Otherwise he is fit for most challenges there in the meta. The new SR-terrain rules are to his benefit clearly. I think he is better agains low-model count lists where he can play the exachange game. I don't think he is very good into massed infantry (interdiction or ghost fleet) even he can remove them in droves if set correctly.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 20, 2017 12:02:16 GMT
Back in the days, Butcher 3 was used in Cygnar drop (not that was super strong eh, but to have a fighting chance) and legion.
Butcher was quite good in legion because he used to ask strong questions. Also it was another age, he had a 16" threat range and a stronger feat.
He isn't so much changed now but he lost couple of good stuff.
1) Madelyne do not give him extra move anymore
2) His feat do not make infantry units skip one activation
3) You can't shoot a butcher dog in his rump with Eyriss 2 to remove upkeeps from him (you can still bonk them in the head with ruin should the course of action demand for it)
4) energizer is 1" less
But he also got some cool stuff as well
1) Silence of Death with +2 strength
2) Stronger jacks
3) Orin midwinter
4) Themes
In WGI theme he is quite interesting since he has AD on the jacks and sacrificial pawn to avoid heavy shooting.
I suppose he can play very well in several matches but the new Harkevich and Karchev madness did in same ways put Butcher 3 in a corner, even if he still is one of the strongest casters in Khador.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 20, 2017 12:59:53 GMT
B3 can play into anything.
B3 plays well into most things.
Particularly I never lost against Cygnar with B3. Energizer beats control, Ruin beats +3 arm upkeep, B3's feat wins any kind of attrition they throw at you sans Striker1 double colossal, wgk sac pawn beats their ranged assassination plan.
What he doesn't like to play (but still can) against:
- spell and/or push denial. We're talking Menoth book, "no push" upkeep, "no push on battlegroup" spell, double cost on spells, etc. No push + flashing blade means you don't get to perform your kill all things feat turn and have to play honest.
- satyxis and other kinds of Feedback if he brings the high jack count list. They just ping him to death. Low jack count is okay, particularly because Ruin is so awesome against Cryx.
- def skew. Mat 8/9 is fine and all, but you're still not hitting those def 16-17 snakes and wolves.
- spell assassination that sac pawn doesn't save against. Those things are rare though and he can just camp, he's still a hard to kill big guy even without sac pawn.
I honestly don't see a reason to play B3 in Jaws over the Wgk. Especially after Carriage fix gives us a good rectangle scoring model that count for theme. It's slower, it threats less, 2 free foc from Seers don't compensate for loss of sac pawn. Maybe if you want to get all your jacks off the shelf?
Also always take wardog. It's the model with the most added survivability to pts ratio in the list after wg grunts.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Jul 20, 2017 13:04:34 GMT
True, he just does not help Jacks as well as Harkevich or Karchev.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 20, 2017 13:14:54 GMT
You need to be smart with him into garçols because he can't pulll them. A competent player can exploit that.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 20, 2017 13:24:04 GMT
Going to play this weekend a wgi theme under proposed cid with Orin and a and h and valachev, min wgi with rockets and then ruin, devestator, maurader and then gun carriage. Great ghost fleet drop and with Orin and sac pawns should work into swans. Pair itt with loud chris vlad2 list and I think good to go
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Post by Netherby on Jul 20, 2017 14:22:42 GMT
B3 wants to avoid playing into things that can't be moved. Nemo3 for example is a pretty painful matchup. He is also not keen on match ups that have a lot of arcane suppression and lamentations type effects.
He has some game into pretty much everything else, but your best match ups are against casters that have to play forward for command range abilities or due to small control areas or such.
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Post by maleficoru on Jul 20, 2017 15:40:42 GMT
I recently picked up B3 and have had great success with the following list: War Room Army Khador - Kill! Maim! Burn! Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - War Dog - PC: 3 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Devastator - PC: 14 Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0 Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 THEME: Winter Guard Kommand --- GENERATED : 07/20/2017 08:32:50 BUILD ID : 2045.17-07-09 Its what I reach for into Circle, Legion, Most Cygnar and Cryx. I play it with the Two Devs in front of butcher who is allways moving forward with the agrii either flanking the devs or in front of them depending on how close B3 is to the enemy lines with the Riflemen/guns and FC working together to punch holes in the enemy lines for him to exploit. *Bonus last night I had him kill 2 kodiaks a juggernaut and 2 closed devs in one feat activation who ever said Khador heavies were op  !....just had to add that in there >_> |
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Post by skathrex on Jul 21, 2017 11:22:56 GMT
Thx for all the insite.
The "non"-pushable thing lets me tune my Strakov list towards helping that weakness.
And I think the WGK List is what I will run without many changes. Still looks solid and the only thing I am not sure about is Wardog, mechaniks or make the marauder a Kodiak.
Going to play a few games to test it out. He will be my Cygnar/Cryx drop, with a little caution on the cygnar side.
So long and thx for the fish.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 21, 2017 11:49:10 GMT
I've used B3 quite a bit and I've done pretty well with him.
I do think WGK is the way to go. Butcher does do some things for jacks. Energiser and silence of death are pretty good, but seeing as I think we are on the tail end of pure jackspam with SR17 now here and he doesn't do anything for the rest of the list (although Kayazy Eliminators with Silence of Death are very good PS17 monsters, I think) but Kayazy Assassins don't gain much from extra strength because they automatically kill any living thing that they hit.
Now Butcher has a medium base and this makes him weak to ranged attack, only man o wars and jacks screen him from attacks. So having a walking shield around him is very good. Even if it's just a minimum unit of Infantry. And it makes for a good combined arms list.
Now, do I buy a marauder to make the list I fancy? Or maybe I can convince my girlfriend that I need a Gun Carriage.
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Post by warriorofiron on Jul 21, 2017 19:14:17 GMT
Im loving B3 in WGK theme so far with some rockets and a fun carriage, it really covers one of his weak links which is shooting, while continuing to help his jacks with the advance move.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 22, 2017 9:16:32 GMT
So played a few games now and tested a few things.
The Butcher3 WG list is pretty strong and I think I am going to stick with it.
Things I learned:
Butcher3 vs Harkevich: It may have been my dice but ARM 23 was not nice for Butcher. Had 8 Attacks and 3 of 4 Jacks survived. Was to ambitious, but was a test. Could have played a round more for scenario.
Butcher3 vs Mosar: WG is worth a lot. Played to much Strakov1 and 2 in the past so wasn't used to my caster getting shot at. Wouldn't haved survived without Sacpawn.
Still the only decision is Wardog or Marauder to Kodiak. Wasn't happy with the Mechanics. Any thoughts
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Post by sand20go on Jul 22, 2017 13:26:31 GMT
So played a few games now and tested a few things. The Butcher3 WG list is pretty strong and I think I am going to stick with it. Things I learned: Butcher3 vs Harkevich: It may have been my dice but ARM 23 was not nice for Butcher. Had 8 Attacks and 3 of 4 Jacks survived. Was to ambitious, but was a test. Could have played a round more for scenario. Butcher3 vs Mosar: WG is worth a lot. Played to much Strakov1 and 2 in the past so wasn't used to my caster getting shot at. Wouldn't haved survived without Sacpawn. Still the only decision is Wardog or Marauder to Kodiak. Wasn't happy with the Mechanics. Any thoughts Remember that into hark if you pull the jacks out of control they got arm 20. You add Ragman (cid) and silience you are pow 20. Dead jacks. |
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Post by skathrex on Jul 22, 2017 15:56:58 GMT
So played a few games now and tested a few things. The Butcher3 WG list is pretty strong and I think I am going to stick with it. Things I learned: Butcher3 vs Harkevich: It may have been my dice but ARM 23 was not nice for Butcher. Had 8 Attacks and 3 of 4 Jacks survived. Was to ambitious, but was a test. Could have played a round more for scenario. Butcher3 vs Mosar: WG is worth a lot. Played to much Strakov1 and 2 in the past so wasn't used to my caster getting shot at. Wouldn't haved survived without Sacpawn. Still the only decision is Wardog or Marauder to Kodiak. Wasn't happy with the Mechanics. Any thoughts Remember that into hark if you pull the jacks out of control they got arm 20. You add Ragman (cid) and silience you are pow 20. Dead jacks. That would have been useful indeed, but sadly I think they where all still in controll. Still a useful information for the future. |
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!....just had to add that in there >_>
