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Post by Mydnight on Jul 20, 2017 0:14:50 GMT
The bear change pushes them towards being more of an ambush unit which is fine, since they shouldn't be competing with champs and longriders.
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Post by gobber on Jul 20, 2017 0:22:18 GMT
I know it's "only" ranged attacks, but has PP not learned from the last time they gave casters feats the flat out prevented attacks? Saeryn? 2na? As a Legion player her feat sounds like a targeted Firetruck your ranged beasts, though it's fairly minor.
Edit Also, given Stone buffs, Champions look like better Bastions. Nice.
Needing to catch enemy models and have them remain in your control area is very different than flat out preventing ranged attacks (which still exists on Gunnbjorn). This current feat is quite comparable to Zerkova1's feat; sharing the weakness to "just back up and shoot." Most control feats (Oldwitch1, Haley2, Rask, Coven, Kaelyssa, Bart, etc) aren't that functionally different. Losing eyeless sight mostly affects Legion's ability to charge through her clouds; ranged models are either affected by the feat or can back up, get eyeless sight back and shoot through the clouds normally.
Also, sanguine bond is pretty sweet with retaliatory strike for those who haven't noticed that interaction yet...
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 20, 2017 1:17:33 GMT
At least if you spread the unit out you could kill a model that hasn't been attacked yet. It's a definite advantage over not having it obviously. Spreading out is kind of hard as sanguine bond only works within 3" Thanks. I've never played a unit with sanguine bond so i was thinking in command.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 20, 2017 1:19:37 GMT
The bear change pushes them towards being more of an ambush unit which is fine, since they shouldn't be competing with champs and longriders. Part of the issue is no one was really using long riders (may change now but I don't know if 2" melee is enough) and champs are hard to deliver. Bears have similar weaknesses to champs but made up for it by being cheap and having access to ambush. In most of the CiD Battle reports they died horribly to guns. gobber I think sanguine bond will end up being pretty lackluster most of my experience with killing champs is typically so much overkill that using sanguine bond would be worse than just taking the death. 3" limitation exacerbates this as you have to clump up even more than before. I've played bastions a lot trying to make that awful rule work. Arm 18 sanguine bondis not going to save you, trust me.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 20, 2017 1:19:44 GMT
I know it's "only" ranged attacks, but has PP not learned from the last time they gave casters feats the flat out prevented attacks? Saeryn? 2na? As a Legion player her feat sounds like a targeted Firetruck your ranged beasts, though it's fairly minor.
Edit Also, given Stone buffs, Champions look like better Bastions. Nice. Zerkova 1 called. Now they are like sisters. It will be fine.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jul 20, 2017 2:44:39 GMT
Notes on posted in Northkin CID Wk2
Storm of the North: To help diversify the theme benefits of Trollblood themes we felt this addition would not only work well within the force, but also give an interesting and unique bonus to the theme. Now has snow drifts, not +1 to starting roll.
Thoughts: This is fine. +1 to start is less important with the proposed KSB change to allow d3 Fury gain. Snow drifts thematic. Prowl enabling is helpful during 1st/2nd movement turns for solos.
Kolgrima: We assessed the situation of giving Kolgrima the ability to channel and found it too strong. Increasing Frost Hammer's range (and thus creating the spell Winters Tide) to SP10 we hope to mitigate some of the issues. With her new Feat, she should be much safer from assassination on the turn she advances to use it. Feat changed, replace Frost Hammer with Winter’s Tide
Thoughts: Winter's Tide spell is good, given no channeling. Her Feat change is reminiscent of Gunnbjorn's, with a nod towards eliminating certain Circle or Legion assassination attempts. Will be a good test.
Pyre Troll: The Pyre Troll is at the proper power level of rules we would like, but it just doesn't seem to live up to its point cost. This should help make him a more attractive option. Cost changed to 8.
Thoughts: Synergy with the new Battle Engine may make the Pyre more attractive for their coupled inclusion. Pyre with a universal 'enemy model directly hit (only)' Flare ability would make diverse army use a consideration. Decreased cost allows for competitive consideration when points are tight, and the choices for 8 points are limited.
Troll Basher: The Basher is a solid light warbeast and by cutting some of the fat from his rules we can reduce his point cost. Cost is now 7.
Thoughts: Bargain price for a basic light. Will be a decent trade piece/buff target. I'll be watching out for this relative to any kind of 'Synergy' spell.
Glacier King: The consistency of the Glacier King's ranged attacks pushing models out of its own range was unfortunate. This new rule not only fixes that issue but gives a more thematic critical stationary to the attack. Replace Thunderbolt with Storm Chiller.
Thoughts: Excellent. I've hated the PUSH-out-of-range since the day we met.
Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears: Overshadowing most melee options in the game, the Battle Bears were operating well outside the power curve. A slight increase in points and a few built in weaknesses should help bring them in line with our vision. Cost 10, Handler has 5 damage, Prowl is native, Gang is Granted.
Thoughts: This is fine. More 'granular', still a good points to value unit.
Northkin Raider: Northkin Raiders were never meant to have continuous effect fire on every ranged attack. This change fixes that issue. Continuous Effect: Fire changed to Critical Fire.
Thoughts: Reasonable change
Pyg Lookouts: Adding the flexibility of unit size should help players include these situational but powerful models. Can now be purchased as a 4-model unit for 7 points.
Thoughts: Love the granular approach! Yet, with virtually no combat capability, but requirement for upfield use while in formation, the cost per model is too much (reference Dhunian Knot). 7 points for 4 models that will be trivially eliminated after one use. Consider 1.5 pts per model.
Trollkin Champions: With a slight increase in damage and the addition on the Sanguine Bond rule we hope that Champions gain a little more survivability and utility. Please test this extensively, it is quite a large change. Champions gain Sanguine Bond and STR 8 but go back up to cost 10/16.
Thoughts: Survival and battlefield spread of force application are two major concerns for Champions at their premium price. Sanguine Bond allows a mild spread-out survival increase, but with a decrease to overall unit survival. Defensive Line is a counter-productive ability in a 1" melee double-attacking unit whose value comes from an ability to spread to engage multi-targets (better than a warbeast might). Champions with a 13 DEF and Steady with no B2B requirement would provide a better choice for the few DEF buffs available to units in Trollbloods.
Skaldi Bonehammer: Skaldi picked up the same changes as the Champions. Skaldi gain Sanguine Bond and STR 8
Thoughts: Ditto
Trollkin Long Rider: A slight increase in threat range should help out the Long Riders. We're keeping an eye out for additional feedback on this unit, so keep playing games! Long Riders gain 2” melee range on Cavalry Axes.
Thoughts: Excellent, allows Reposition (after attack) that is currently virtually an unuse-able rule when attacking most fielded infantry units (1" melee freestrikes)
Horthol, Long Rider Hero: Horthol is updated to match the Long Riders. Horthol gains 2” melee range on Long Hammer.
Thoughts: Ditto!
Trollkin Runebearer: Arcane Repeater should help with many peoples issues with some of the Fury 5 casters. Please test this extensively, especially with casters like Calandra. Runebearer gains Arcane Repeater.
Thoughts: Fury 5 warlocks most often suffer from inability to maintain Battlegroup warbeasts in Control Range (Fury 5 warlocks casting offensive spells is often avoided unless the attack is absolutely necessary and boosted). If Calandra's Star Crossed aura is abusively large, change Arcane Repeater to an ability that allows for BG warbeast forcing/leaching/healing/etc. at +2" (or more!) Control Range.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jul 20, 2017 3:05:40 GMT
MAT/RAT on my Rangers is +1/+2 over Lookouts. SPD/DEF/ARM +1/+1/-1 over Lookouts. No AMBUSH/no Tough/no Immunity:Cold and -1 P&S melee compared to Lookouts. Lookouts appear to be pure support. Rangers can provide some accurate but low POW shooting offense. With the generally shorter range/lower RAT of Trollblood shooting it is interesting to me that the value of support (over offense potential) creates a very comparable unit, but at higher point cost...
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 20, 2017 3:34:40 GMT
I don't like Sanguine Bond, honestly. It's just more fiddliness that won't pay off enough often enough. If they are going to cost 10/16 and we agree that they do need more survivability, then they should simply have 8 boxes instead.
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Jul 20, 2017 4:20:54 GMT
Isn't it more a player that has access to the right tools, will kill the handler? You can still plop them in terrain to trigger stealth and body block with two large bases. Seems okay to me.
I still haven't gotten a chance to play test anything in this cycle due to L&L. Hopefully soon.
The question is how common are those tools...Boosted Blasts, Sprays and e leaps all will kill the squishy handler. Yeah, those could do it. Still interested in how it plays out. Good write up in the CID, bye the way.
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Post by gobber on Jul 20, 2017 5:18:42 GMT
The bear change pushes them towards being more of an ambush unit which is fine, since they shouldn't be competing with champs and longriders. Part of the issue is no one was really using long riders (may change now but I don't know if 2" melee is enough) and champs are hard to deliver. Bears have similar weaknesses to champs but made up for it by being cheap and having access to ambush. In most of the CiD Battle reports they died horribly to guns. gobber I think sanguine bond will end up being pretty lackluster most of my experience with killing champs is typically so much overkill that using sanguine bond would be worse than just taking the death. 3" limitation exacerbates this as you have to clump up even more than before. I've played bastions a lot trying to make that awful rule work. Arm 18 sanguine bondis not going to save you, trust me. I definitely agree with @big Fat Troll that it's unnecessarily fiddly for its cost (and I think it's the less substantive of the two buffs they got today), but since they already want to be b2b for the defense and no-knockdown tough they'll be able to get occasional out of it without tunneling in on that strategy. Unlike bastions who are relying on the bond to do anything, pow12 WM champs have other reasons to be on the board.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 20, 2017 6:31:44 GMT
A-Mo yeah I think playtesting will give me a better and more reasoned out perspective. A lot of my reaction for champs is from past experience with sanguine bond...I have a rough history with that ability from where I desperately tried to get it to make bastions work. And thank you! gobber I guess my biggest issue is I feel like they have champs 2 buffs that don't actually fix thier biggest issue, getting shot off the table/killed by charges from Alphas. If I am charging Champs I'm gonna be using something that overkills them. If I am shooting champs you can distribute health all you want...it's just extra damage I get to do when I spike. Like I mentioned earlier I have an absolutley horrible experience with sanguine bond.
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Post by ravenfire_guest on Jul 20, 2017 7:29:25 GMT
....Pyre Troll: Thoughts: Synergy with the new Battle Engine may make the Pyre more attractive for their coupled inclusion. Pyre with a universal 'enemy model directly hit (only)' Flare ability would make diverse army use a consideration. Decreased cost allows for competitive consideration when points are tight, and the choices for 8 points are limited. FLARE ? They talk about flare on the Pyre... Can't find it in the updated rules.. anyone ?
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Post by josephkerr on Jul 20, 2017 8:21:16 GMT
....Pyre Troll: Thoughts: Synergy with the new Battle Engine may make the Pyre more attractive for their coupled inclusion. Pyre with a universal 'enemy model directly hit (only)' Flare ability would make diverse army use a consideration. Decreased cost allows for competitive consideration when points are tight, and the choices for 8 points are limited. FLARE ? They talk about flare on the Pyre... Can't find it in the updated rules.. anyone ? Sadly, no Flare. OP was just opining how great Flare would be.
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Post by ravenfire_guest on Jul 20, 2017 9:01:51 GMT
maybe we should push for flare
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Post by Trollock on Jul 20, 2017 11:02:49 GMT
The flare thing was something i suggested on the CID forum. It is not real I think Sanguine Bond on champions is pretty interesting for sure. It protects them well against small arms fire, it protects them against infantry (who has trouble hitting them, so making sure that the attacks that do hit does not kill any one. Killing a 5 box ARM 18 model is very easy for a charging infantry model, especially a weapon master. If you can potentially have an extra 16 boxes to chew through, a normal infantry model can not kill a champion. The comparison to Bastions is a bit off, because they are "always" hit by any extra attacks you put in to them. Champions are often missed, and if the few attacks that do hit no longer actually kills, you may not do any work. Having 5 Champs left to do work is WAY different than having 2. It also allows for clever plays, such as if two of your champions are charged by two infantry dudes, and the first one hits and does enough damage to kill the first champion, you simply have the other champion die instead. Now the second charger has no target to punch, or he can punch something, but it is no longer a charge. This is very neat. It also turns on Retaliatory Strike. All in all, getting Sanguine bond is a clear buff, and paying 1 point for it is a very reasonable price, especially when it ALSO comes with +1 STR. GK is superb now i think. Raiders got nerfed pretty heavily. They can no longer light up FEs for example, so they no longer automatically take the Pyres place. I can live with this, though it does mean that they are no longer nearly as good against heavy infantry. They are still great against heavies, and decent against low ARM infantry. 4 Pygs sounds almost as good as 6, and the discount is great to have access to, depending on what job you have in mind for them. Long Riders with 2" reach sounds like they may se play. Not in SotN, but in BoH. I like it ! The Runebearer change is INCREDIBLE. +2" control range will be absolutely amazing for so many casters. You will have to keep him even more safe though, so spell slave will probably only be used for spells you put on your own models (magic bullet, boundless charge etc) Basher at 7 points sounds great too. I think Grissel 1 is VERY interested in those guys. With a free charge, they can make 5 attacks at POW 18 BEFORE calamity with her (assuming normal elder). PoD for light beast spam works well with her, and this is a super nice addition. That is Juggernaught levels of damage from a 7 point beast. Sure, you have spent a lot on support, but you only commit the Basher to be killed. The Bear nerf was unavoidable i think. They are still VERY good, but protecting the handler is critical. You need to use terrain and distance, but it should be doable against most lists i think. Also, even without Gang the bears are dangerous to backline units. They are probably not a "normal" fighting unit now, but will ambush. This was probably the best way to play them anyway, but if you have nice terrain, you can always AD them instead. It all depends on what your opponent brings and what you bring. I still like them a lot (though i have yet to actually play any version of them lol) Kolgrimma is very interesting. The feat (at 16" of range now, remember) went from doing nothing against Legion to absolutely crushing them. The flying beasts do not have pathfinder, so if they lose flight, they can crawl around in the forest or try and walk around that building. It will also be amazing the first time you push a pathfinding model who were just toing in to a forest so that it goes out on the other side, and can no longer see through the forest to charge! I have no idea if it is too strong, but it feels VERY nice. It also helps set her apart from Grim 1, since she no longer debuffs DEF with the feat, but is resilient against shooting to compensate. Does any one care about her getting a 10" spray? It feels like i will never use it anyway. Maybe for a last ditch assassination, but i doubt that she will ever be within 15" of an enemy caster. She is way too squishy. Eilish is slightly less bullshit, but he is still absurd imo. If points keep going up he may not be auto include for every one always though...
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