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Post by Tenzilla on Jul 17, 2017 2:06:20 GMT
I guess I am alone. I think she is a C caster. She basically has to play in WGK against any list that has multiple boostable guns or she just does. She really isn't a spell slinger because she has one nuke. That cost 4. She wants to do so much but she struggles to really do one thing per turn outside of her feat turn. She does have a solid assassination game, but not really anything more than another caster with access to Pathfinder and KD. Yeah she can slint it an extra 5 inches but still pretty easy to play around.
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Post by josephkerr on Jul 17, 2017 2:06:26 GMT
She's very solid in Khador but have 10 point marauders and jack buffs and ur in a solid place as a khador caster. Old Witch 3 should be in a lot of Grymkin 2 lists.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 17, 2017 2:27:43 GMT
Don't mean to nit pick, but I think it's worth to note that SnP averages to a +2, it's not nearly as powerful as a actual +2. Meaning that Vlad needs a large volume of attacks to average the +2 IME (and tilt your opponents in the process ) Not sure how that works. The odds of heads or tails on a coin (Thats perfectly balanced) is 50/50. You don't need to flip it 100 times to confirm that. How is Vlad different? Do the math. MAT 7 3d6 dropping lowest vs DEF 13 is a 89.35% probability of hitting with a 6. MAT 9 2d6 vs DEF 13 is 91.67% probability of hitting with a 4. The difference gets bigger when needing to hit DEF 14: MAT 7 3d6 dropping lowest vs DEF 14 is a 80.56% probability of hitting with a 7. MAT 9 2d6 vs DEF 14 is 83.33% probability of hitting with a 5. In Vlad's case you need repetition to make up the difference. If it were a "straight +2" both probabilities would be equal. Check my math here anydice.com/program/3f7
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 17, 2017 2:40:25 GMT
Fair enough. I still say that both her nuke spell and her Blind gun are harder then just a buff to your army.
The higher DEF the enemy model is, the more you need the debuff, the more you need to burn more focus to debuff them.
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Post by borderprince on Jul 17, 2017 5:30:18 GMT
Don't mean to nit pick, but I think it's worth to note that SnP averages to a +2, it's not nearly as powerful as a actual +2. Meaning that Vlad needs a large volume of attacks to average the +2 IME (and tilt your opponents in the process ) Not sure how that works. The odds of heads or tails on a coin (Thats perfectly balanced) is 50/50. You don't need to flip it 100 times to confirm that. You also don't always get 50/50 results with every flip. I've just tested it. According to a scientific study of 4 flips, tails come up 75% of the time. But if I extended the study to a larger number of flips, the odds on tails coming up 75% of the time should be much reduced and the likelihood of the overall result being closer to the probable is much higher. It's important to bear this in mind whenever considering odds in the game. It's only over the longer run that specific results will fairly closely match the mathematical probability. That's why will still boost on a 5 or 6 to hit when it's an important roll. OW2 gets +2 on every hit. Vlad1 will probably end up averaging it, eventually. But on those key rolls, Vlad1 can roll lower (and higher, of course). OW2's effect is entirely guaranteed and therefore predictable, which is very valuable. That's why I agree with Armchair Warrior:
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 17, 2017 6:48:54 GMT
"+2" is just a shorthand approximation of what "+1 dice drop the lowest" does, we just use to simplify the maths, let's not get too caught up in the fine details of something that was never intended to be all that precise to begin with.
The discussion of whether "+2" is more powerful than "averages out to around +2" doesn't really seem to be worth dwelling on in this case to me; we're talking about an ability that will be affecting most of your army for most of the game, so there's enough rolls there that "averages out" is probably good enough.
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Post by spacecowboy55 on Jul 17, 2017 7:38:16 GMT
For not having an arc node, a 21" threat on her offensive spells sounds pretty nice to me.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 17, 2017 12:38:37 GMT
I think that best Khador caster was and still is B3 due to his toolkit of energizer, takedown and Ruin in theme. He can play into literally any matchup in the game. OW2 is not on that level due to not having rfp/magical weapons, not having anything against control and not having access to relevant character jack in theme. She obviously doesn't compete with Karchev, Hark, etc. for being a jack caster either since she can't fuel and speed up at the same time. What she does I think is replace Vlad 1 as the best gunline caster we have. Curse and S&P on averages both give +2 hit/damage. Windstorm is way way better than Windwall and in gunline vs. gunline matchup it has zero counterplay unlike clouds, passage, etc. In hypothetical OW2 wgk vs. Vlad wgk matchup she will easily wipe him off the board. Her feat is also better than V1's feat in the context of gunline. V1 was always awkward with wanting to take more jacks and less guns because of his feat. So there it is, she will be the wgk gunline queen while Vlad1 moves on to spamming jacks to remain relevant. I think I have to disagree with a few things here. The only thing Butcher3 has on her are the Magic weapons/rfp (besides personal impact, which is the real difference). Atm that is really important, 4 month ago no body cared for Magic Weapons/Rfp. She is however way better into Rng armies which atm is worth something too. I think she can be a jackcaster like Karchev and hark because neither of those do fuel up and speed up at the same time very well. She is our best caster to run Juggers with imo. And to the Vlad1 comparison I can just say, its like the rest a bit like comparing apples and bananas. Vlad1 absolutely deals more dmg than her and has faster jacks, however in a direct matchup I wouldn't bet any money on Vlad1. She excells against enemy Gunlines and brings a very real Assasination thread. I would argue that she would like to run more jacks than vlad, because with her the guns stop beeing usefull after the debuffed target is dead. All in all she will be crazy flexible and have a high skill cap wich makes her an A caster for me. If her huge will prove to be a big problem she will be a B caster, if she finds the right list or spot in the meta she could even be a S caster.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 17, 2017 14:53:53 GMT
I think I have to disagree with a few things here. The only thing Butcher3 has on her are the Magic weapons/rfp (besides personal impact, which is the real difference). Atm that is really important, 4 month ago no body cared for Magic Weapons/Rfp. She is however way better into Rng armies which atm is worth something too. I think she can be a jackcaster like Karchev and hark because neither of those do fuel up and speed up at the same time very well. She is our best caster to run Juggers with imo. And to the Vlad1 comparison I can just say, its like the rest a bit like comparing apples and bananas. Vlad1 absolutely deals more dmg than her and has faster jacks, however in a direct matchup I wouldn't bet any money on Vlad1. She excells against enemy Gunlines and brings a very real Assasination thread. I would argue that she would like to run more jacks than vlad, because with her the guns stop beeing usefull after the debuffed target is dead. All in all she will be crazy flexible and have a high skill cap wich makes her an A caster for me. If her huge will prove to be a big problem she will be a B caster, if she finds the right list or spot in the meta she could even be a S caster. Rfp/magic weapons are very desirable in competitive pair until mercs are allowed in themes. So you can't just throw out B3 and put OW2 in. Karchev can r2w whole battlegroup for 1 focus, Hark can mobility whole bg for 3, same for Malakov and escort, Vlad1/Strakhov and their feats, OW1 does apparition for free. OW2 needs to boundless every jack personally, fielding something like 8-9 jacks with her is impossible. Combined arms is the best she can do, even OW1 is better at going all-jack. About her comparison with Vlad1 I think that while there are some differences the list composition is very close. You can take any tournament Vlad wgk list, replace Vlad for OW2 and it will work. I agree that she brings more than Vlad to that list so she will be the caster to use with it in my opinion.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 17, 2017 15:21:22 GMT
SPD buff, DMG buff, Scourge, reconstruct and a solid middle finger to guns in a faction with guns. How can she not have game?
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Post by Tenzilla on Jul 17, 2017 15:27:33 GMT
I disagree, vlad1 works because he makes all those crappy rat5 rockets hit and ups their damage, in broad sweeping strokes. A 29ish inch bubble of buffing for 4 focus and that is hit and damage on all models, OW2 is at best spending 5 focus to hit fix (scourge) and damage fix (curse) a single target, that is no boosting, and using the spell reduction costs.
Vlad is much easier to protects, and his jacks threat further.
I cannot see how you could even put these two casters into the same conversation, when it comes to who runs the wgk gunline better.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 17, 2017 15:47:58 GMT
I disagree, vlad1 works because he makes all those crappy rat5 rockets hit and ups their damage, in broad sweeping strokes. A 29ish inch bubble of buffing for 4 focus and that is hit and damage on all models, OW2 is at best spending 5 focus to hit fix (scourge) and damage fix (curse) a single target, that is no boosting, and using the spell reduction costs. Vlad is much easier to protects, and his jacks threat further. I cannot see how you could even put these two casters into the same conversation, when it comes to who runs the wgk gunline better. Exactly! People get so caught up on windstorm I think they don't really get how...OK it actually is. Again, most of the time it will only be 14 inches. With most 10 Inch guns, that leaves only 4 inches of actual safety "Safety" if your in the bubble, the range of the guns loss is compensated by the extra walk. It's deceptive. It's really not all it's hyped up to be.
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Post by Cambrius on Jul 17, 2017 15:52:05 GMT
Khador is pretty popular of late and, if nothing else, OW2 is a fairly compelling argument for spending $100 on another huge base.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 17, 2017 15:55:04 GMT
In my experience of playing wgk hit buffs is not what I needed ever. Field gun/marauder/carriage knockdown are all the hit buffs you need and if the target can't be knocked down it's probably some def skew list that s&p won't help hit enough to kill anyway. If anything her Blind is welcomed in any such matchup that isn't Legion where the only out is boosting Juggie hits and hope to freeze, no matter if you have s&p or not. Damage buffs are welcomed and OW2 has exactly that. WGK like staying power a lot and she has it, not Solid ground+tough bubble good, but still good.
Vlad is actually harder to protect. 2 pow 15 boosted shots from, say Stormwall, can kill him even through windwall. Leaps and leap variants can kill him. He can be frozen/knocked down. Meanwhile OW2 laughs at pow 10s and can facetank a heavy with a focus or two, add a wardog and they won't even hit her properly. And she's even repairable against those ping-you-to-death lists with feedback. She's also not a warjack or warrior model. No Infernal machine Stalkers for her.
Jack threat is irrelevant in the rocket spam list because enemy will come to you. Anything above spd 4 is okay and she has it. Also Vlad's superior jack threat isn't free, it's a feat, which is lackluster in the list that doesn't want many jacks. OW2's feat is plain better in the context of wgk.
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Post by Tenzilla on Jul 17, 2017 16:18:10 GMT
Again I disagree. Vlad can gain cover, concealment, have lost blocked, windwalls to prevent a ton of shooting, can use blood of Kings if threats are near.
OW it's always visible, and def 12 it's a joke. She is also slow and easy to predict movements and box her in. She either becomes vulnerable or she hides. Rat 5 rockets need 7+s to hit most heavies and infantry, Vlad makes that very likely, and ups the damage, gun carriage KD is great but did you get all your impact attacks? Or did you fail that charge? With Vlad you probably should not be leading with your marauders to get KDs to hit fix for your 20" threat rockets. That's basically losing a turn of shooting. Also how does the rat5 Field gun serve as a reliable hit fixer for an army? It's just as bad as the rest of your army at shooting.
And let's not forget, Vlad adds that additional drop the lowest on damage rolls as well.
This isn't even a comparison, Vlad1 has been and will be the premier gunline caster. OW2 is a tool box caster at best. I played her and played against her in the CID and now that she is finished and at this point if she were only a more reasonable $60ish dollars I wouldn't be running out to purchase her.
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