mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 18, 2017 12:05:57 GMT
I should also say that I see this guy being valuable in an army with the Northkin Elder. +1" speed from the elder over a Mauler, +1" reach starts to add up pretty quickly. On a target that pow 17 with 4 fury kills without rage (with Rush) he can threat 13". That really is good.
But... just so we know what we'd be looking at him being able to kill in that scenario...
Brawler would have a 46% chance of killing a 12/18 beast/jack with 30 boxes. That does go up to 66% if mat goes to 7 near the hooch Hauler.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 18, 2017 12:21:29 GMT
I do disagree. -Reach on a heavy is not to be underestimated, especially for Trolls, and not just for Charge of the Trolls. Anything that makes positioning easier for a faction full of medium bases built around a 7-man support unit is worth a second look right there. -There are more ways than animi to reach a critical mass of synergies. In fact, animi are not even a particularly good way to do that, in part because they don't stack with each other. Warjacks and units don't have animi at all, and the Warmachine factions (except maybe Menoth) all had better synergy within the average list than we did before Northkin. -Ornery is not a great animus, but it's better than the Slag paying 1 to be feel bad about himself, yet the Slag does have a niche and does see play, at least in Specialists. -The Blitzer doesn't see play because it's pillow-fisted and over-costed, and the fun shenanigans that it can do are not worth it when we can simply pay 3 points more for far more reliable damage output. It actually has a useful animus. Bulldoze can be amazing for either assassination runs or scenario play. -It's not like we can't put the Brawler in a list with both Rush and Rage. We almost always will. -Not all terrain is rough terrain and small amounts of that, like clipping a forest, can be overcome with the long ranges that Borka 1 and Doomy 2 can muster, especially with Lanyssa. She uses Hunter's Mark, then Doomy can cast Rage on the Brawler and feat. The Brawler can now charge a total of 15 inches, so losing 2-3 inches off of that to rough terrain probably won't stop him. Reach means very little, especially when all our other heavies have 1 inch. It's great with overtake or thresher, but honestly an earthborn will out threat it in most real world scenarios.
We are a faction build on Animi buffs. You may not like it, but we are. Rage and rush for melee beasts, Far Strike for ranged beasts.
The slag only seeing play as a specialist even in a game currently dominated by warjacks feels like it supports my point rather than counters it. Give it, it's old animus and it might see play. Hell give it rush or rage and it would see play.
So you wouldn't take a blitzer if it was exactly the same but with Rush or Rage? I'd take it over a mauler or Axer in an instant. Maybe I overvalue guns. so much Cygnar in Europe.
- The cheapest that list can be is 31 points for 2 heavies and a light warbeast with no guns. See my previous point.
I already said he would see play with Doomy2, Most terrain is rough terrain. It feels like against a good player it never happens. The Brawler is amazing in a vaccum where you play on an empty table. In practice an Earthborn is almost always better and neither have guns or Rage so they are fighting for the same spot.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 18, 2017 12:23:57 GMT
I should also say that I see this guy being valuable in an army with the Northkin Elder. +1" speed from the elder over a Mauler, +1" reach starts to add up pretty quickly. On a target that pow 17 with 4 fury kills without rage (with Rush) he can threat 13". That really is good. But... just so we know what we'd be looking at him being able to kill in that scenario... Brawler would have a 46% chance of killing a 12/18 beast/jack with 30 boxes. That does go up to 66% if mat goes to 7 near the hooch Hauler. That's very much my point, still he gets much better odds with:
Boundless charge from Grissel1
or
free charge from Horgle, doomy2 or Grim1
or
+2 strength from Ragnor
Now that I think about it, he's pretty sexy with Grim1. Free charges and Pathfinder from a spell
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 18, 2017 14:28:43 GMT
Those buffs make every beast better though.
I'm just not as excited as I was. Sorry for being "that guy." (Seriously, I hate being THAT GUY.)
It does seem like it may help with a new list option. You could bring Rok, a Brawler and an axer and leave out a Mauler perhaps. That brings some options to list build without a Mauler so more things on the table are effected by Northkin benefits.
It's just not on the same level as a Mauler (which is on its own level) or even with a Bomber/Earthborn IMO. The Brawler seems more situational.
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Post by trollsareblue on Jul 18, 2017 15:03:59 GMT
I'm supposed to be the pessimist around here! Seriously, though, this beast is amazing. It isn't cruise control for good play, which is fine. If you've stuck with trolls this long, odds are high you've figured out how to play around minor shortcomings.
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Post by ninjastars on Jul 18, 2017 17:15:08 GMT
I think this beast fills a valuable niche. It's going to be really useful as a heavy armor remover. The fact it's pow 17 means it won't need rage when you use one of our rare damage buffs, like pulverizer, and with reach it has an increased chance of engaging and killing two heavies at once if the opportunity presents itself. The mauler will always be our first heavy, but this guy will compete well with the earthborn as our second heavy.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 18, 2017 18:54:33 GMT
POW 17 can kill heavies. They aren't always ARM 20+. Even if the Brawler can't reliably one-round a Juggernaut, the same is true vice versa. And depending on that terrain and how much of a mess the scrum has become, reach really can be a huge advantage. Especially when we can take up space with whelps.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Jul 18, 2017 23:43:51 GMT
Pathfinder spells are by definition useless on an EBDT, but gold on the Brawler (If spell grants +SPD on top of the Pathfinder then the advantage goes to the EBDT due to Rough terrain additive bonus)
Rage is needed by both EBDT and Brawler to generate the overkill numbers to ensure removal of an opposing heavy warjack.
2" melee makes the Brawler better at finding the crack to reach 'caster kill melee range requirement. 1" melee heavies may require a Trample first.
EBDT's animus helps prevent its own/warlock death against opposing KD/Stationary shenanigans. Brawler's 2" melee may often provide +4 DEF (in melee) Brawler's animus does have destructive potential.
I don't really see the Brawler competing for the EBDT's place, especially at the EBDT's 14 pt cost if it sticks. Love my two EBDTs. Really I see the Brawler as a replacement for Mulg, sadly. My Doomie builds can be 4 points cheaper (EBDT/Brawler), allowing a whole unit of Whelps added...
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Post by starwoof on Jul 19, 2017 6:04:31 GMT
Really I see the Brawler as a replacement for Mulg, sadly. My Doomie builds can be 4 points cheaper (EBDT/Brawler), allowing a whole unit of Whelps added... Mulg is my BFF but I have to agree. It seems like the brawler is just going to replace Mulg for me as well. I would rather see Mulg get some changes/improvements than see the brawler be nerfed though.
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Post by Trollock on Jul 19, 2017 8:31:18 GMT
I think i will always bring Mulg with all the doomies.
Doomy 1: Guardian Beast and Ret Strike allows him two chances to crit smite an attacker away from him. I have a great record on this. the GB attack is boosted too.
Doomy 2: Wild Aggression gives a boosted Ret Strike that can Smite. Same thing.
Doomy 3: Feat gives an additional die on Ret Strike for the crit chance. Also, +1 ARM scales very well with the feat. Also, being able to put up Arcane Suppression for free after doing work is a thing. Oh, and with Admonition and Implacability he is a really tough nut to crack on non-feat turns too. You really want Mulg to be up front to cover your Maulers and the like with his higher ARM and long reach. With Doomy 3, he usually survives that job and gets to kick ass afterwards.
I will surely bring a Brawler in some PoD lists as a 3rd or 4th heavy. With some caster i may try and play him with no Rage and just use caster buffs. He does not feel super fitting in SotN though generally. Sure, he can benefit from +1 SPD or +1 MAT (both great!) but i find myself wanting a ranged battle group due to how much SotN supports ranged pieces, and if i bring a melee beast alongside a ranged BG, it will be a Mauler for sure.
Grissel 1 is a possible exception... He looks really good with Grissel 1, and she may work in SotN. It is always hard to tell with her now what she will and will not work well with...
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