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Post by sand20go on Jul 15, 2017 0:38:37 GMT
How'd you keep the Koldun alive that close to their units? Just screened him with Doom Reavers? Screened by the Doom Reavers which were beside the old witch. Range 12 drops to range 7 making it difficult to shoot at the Doom Reavers. The range 14 stuff dropped to 9 so he kept trying to stay outside of the old witch's command. It gave him little space to do much with his shooting. Yup. So for example consider Firefly,s a staple in Cygnar dudes be gone builds. RNG 10. So where are they going? Unlikely to get to the KL...and no shootinig while within 5 of him. Pretty sure Thunderhead is a no go either (but I would need to confim that) since Energy Pulse is linked to his gun but I would want to confirm that to be sure. Trenchers probably not either - shooting at RNG 5, or even 9 with Snipe. Now a AT Rifleman could be a problem in respect to removing the KL. Snipe so RNG 18 and outside the bubbles. Adept might be able to find a spot outside Witch's Control but close enough to snipe out the KL. Hunter and especially the Defender a bit of an issue but you ALSO have clouds (that is why I think Rienholdt rather than Silly Elf) But GENERALLY if CYgnar doesn't have the right tools I am not sure WHAT they do if they don't have snipe oriented tools. lLike your list a LOT!!!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 15, 2017 1:27:53 GMT
This is why OW2 isn't Vlad 1 in WGK. Vlad sports a brutal attrition game, but any smart player can keep his caster safe from an assassination, Now with Bland and Scourage at my disposal, your DEF 15 caster standing behind a wall is totally screwed if you left a defender on the other side of the walk within 4". Or I can just run my own guy up and keep my back to the OW.! It's really good. In Jaws, I agree she probably only wants 5 jacks...maybe 6 if you're spamming cheap ones... with infantry filling out the package. In the playtesting, consensus was that it's really easy for an opponent to premeasure against boundless charge, but if my Eliminators are keeping you that far back then I got something just for packing the heat. I have not tried Kossites, but if any caster in our stable wants Yuri, 2 free manhunters (instead of the Seers) plus Kossites it's Zevanna. If anyone actually tries this out please post your experience. For now it's on my to do list but I probably won't get a chance to try it out before Gencon. (Man, im hoping she's on presale there). That's actually an interesting thought about Yuri and the manhunters. For the reccord I'm still mad at PP that Yuri can't be one of the free solo in jaws. Now that being said, yeah old witch seems to want her jacks in BG for power magnifier so the forge seer use is limited. Cost 1 boundless charge also don't sound too bad for Yuri & co and curse of shadow is actually a good damage buff that works on all of them instead of being inneficient like all our other damage buff. You got a specific list in mind Armchair? With free theme force goodies, 13 points for yuri, two manhunters and a min unit of kossite doesn't actually sound that bad. Well ok Kossite are still put to shame by all the cool ambushing stuff that's in CID, but Old Witch looks like she might actually make them work. I'm still trying to puzzle out a good list to test with the Kossites. I'm thinking something like this... War Room Army Khador - Old Witch's Jaws of Doom - Kossite Ed Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper - WJ: +27 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Decimator - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 So this jack package is 76 points. I was targeting 75 for the free points but it turns out my infantry package left me a free point. I rarely ever take a Decimator but like I said I think it might be useful for scenario control and the Oracle matchup, and the ROF 2 guns presents a credible assassnation threat when coupled with Behemoth and Curse. You could drop the Decimator for a Destroyer (or double Destroyers if you want to upgrade the Juggernaut) which might be better. Or... a Destroyer and a Devastator with Reconstruct just to be a pain. You could swap Behemoth for a Kodiak and Juggernaut but i Manhunter - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 0 Yuri the Axe - PC: 6 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 I like one Forge Seer as the 3rd solo to fuel up Behemoth. Yuri is a must add for the kossites and Manhunters. Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Kossite Woodsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7 The non jack points are enough to get min Kossites, double eliminators and min mechs. I like this setup.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 15, 2017 11:26:38 GMT
So for Kossites the plan is to blind and then curse of shadows?
But I agree, she has the pontential for massive damage on feat turn. A but like Sorscha1 but not as reliable.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 15, 2017 17:29:00 GMT
What's the reason for the Kossites? Why do you think they are good with her?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 15, 2017 19:26:53 GMT
What's the reason for the Kossites? Why do you think they are good with her? She fixes armor with an upkeep, makes Kossites an actual threat.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 15, 2017 19:53:49 GMT
What's the reason for the Kossites? Why do you think they are good with her? She fixes armor with an upkeep, makes Kossites an actual threat. This. And the fact that she likes Boundless Charge missiles, and doesn't need the Forge Seers as much, so maybe you're bringing double manhunters. And since you brought them you find the points for Yuri. And now... since you paid the Yuri tax, your investment in Kossites comes free with Treewalker so when you bring them in on the side behind a forest they're going to be a damn pain to deal with. Even then I'm not sure you're still straight up better off finding on more point for Widowmaker Scouts. Compare the last list to this. Which is better? I swapped 6 Kossites and the Seer for a free Marksman and Scouts. There's definitely not room for both... (And I found a point by dropping a Kodiak to a Juggernaut but you could have done this another way...) War Room Army Khador - OWJ (copy) Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper - WJ: +27 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Decimator - PC: 16 Manhunter - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 0 Yuri the Axe - PC: 6 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
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Post by skathrex on Jul 17, 2017 10:01:50 GMT
I see the Yuri argument. If you are already taking him Kossites are not that far fetched but I don't see any other reason. Yes they get +2 dmg, but that doesn't work well when they are ambushing. You are not going to target supports (that Kossites want to kill) with the curse, and anything a bit resiliant is either going to have enough armor that Kossites even with curse don't do much, or high enough defense for Kossites to miss it. so yeah, maybe an idea with Yuri, but meh Armchair Warrior has it right I think, Widowmaker are just better.
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Post by tesoe on Jul 17, 2017 17:26:17 GMT
I see the Yuri argument. If you are already taking him Kossites are not that far fetched but I don't see any other reason. Yes they get +2 dmg, but that doesn't work well when they are ambushing. You are not going to target supports (that Kossites want to kill) with the curse, and anything a bit resiliant is either going to have enough armor that Kossites even with curse don't do much, or high enough defense for Kossites to miss it. so yeah, maybe an idea with Yuri, but meh Armchair Warrior has it right I think, Widowmaker are just better. The +2 works perfectly with ambush. Its a debuffs on the enemy. Meaning you don't have to worry about being able to effect the Kossites after they ambush in. Ambushing Kossites can get up to an effective RAT 10 with effectively POW 12 guns. They can hit just fine and kill a lot more than just support pieces. That's the point of taking them with the OW2. They can go after just about everything but jacks and beasts.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 18, 2017 8:09:36 GMT
I see the Yuri argument. If you are already taking him Kossites are not that far fetched but I don't see any other reason. Yes they get +2 dmg, but that doesn't work well when they are ambushing. You are not going to target supports (that Kossites want to kill) with the curse, and anything a bit resiliant is either going to have enough armor that Kossites even with curse don't do much, or high enough defense for Kossites to miss it. so yeah, maybe an idea with Yuri, but meh Armchair Warrior has it right I think, Widowmaker are just better. The +2 works perfectly with ambush. Its a debuffs on the enemy. Meaning you don't have to worry about being able to effect the Kossites after they ambush in. Ambushing Kossites can get up to an effective RAT 10 with effectively POW 12 guns. They can hit just fine and kill a lot more than just support pieces. That's the point of taking them with the OW2. They can go after just about everything but jacks and beasts. Maybe I am missing something here but Rat 10? Rat 8 is with Aiming and backarc, which needs an opponent who forgot about them or they won't get both. Furthermore getting the curse on the supportstuff the Kossites are aiming for is anything but easy. Even with Sylys you would have to be in 17" to the support which normally means there is a caster, Jacks/beast and all there fighting stuff in between. I don't see that happening
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Post by tesoe on Jul 18, 2017 15:10:08 GMT
The +2 works perfectly with ambush. Its a debuffs on the enemy. Meaning you don't have to worry about being able to effect the Kossites after they ambush in. Ambushing Kossites can get up to an effective RAT 10 with effectively POW 12 guns. They can hit just fine and kill a lot more than just support pieces. That's the point of taking them with the OW2. They can go after just about everything but jacks and beasts. Maybe I am missing something here but Rat 10? Rat 8 is with Aiming and backarc, which needs an opponent who forgot about them or they won't get both. Furthermore getting the curse on the supportstuff the Kossites are aiming for is anything but easy. Even with Sylys you would have to be in 17" to the support which normally means there is a caster, Jacks/beast and all there fighting stuff in between. I don't see that happening So again, they don't need to go after support models. Have them go kill a couple storm lances from behind, a unit of iron fangs, or a unit of That. And the extra RAT comes from the OW2 being able to blind entire units. I wasn't including aiming. They have a better threat if they move and shoot the same tune they ambush in.
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Post by steamwitch on Jul 19, 2017 2:36:51 GMT
I'm disappointed at not having telgesh mark...
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Post by skathrex on Jul 19, 2017 7:23:39 GMT
Maybe I am missing something here but Rat 10? Rat 8 is with Aiming and backarc, which needs an opponent who forgot about them or they won't get both. Furthermore getting the curse on the supportstuff the Kossites are aiming for is anything but easy. Even with Sylys you would have to be in 17" to the support which normally means there is a caster, Jacks/beast and all there fighting stuff in between. I don't see that happening So again, they don't need to go after support models. Have them go kill a couple storm lances from behind, a unit of iron fangs, or a unit of That. And the extra RAT comes from the OW2 being able to blind entire units. I wasn't including aiming. They have a better threat if they move and shoot the same tune they ambush in. Stormlances fall under the example of Units that are to tough. Def 13 needs a 7 to hit. Blinding more than 2 requires a bad opponent and even with arm debuff you are at -5, which is means you can kill both blinded or 1,5 non blinded Stormlances. That doesn't sound worth the support of taking Rng-Amplifier + Curse (+Gun, +boost to hit on both). OW2 CAN do a lot, she always hast to evaluate what is worth to do, and kossites just don't sound like they are worth it.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jul 19, 2017 9:34:21 GMT
I'm agreeing with skathrex on this one. Sounds like a lot of situational things need to line up to get reasonable work out of kossites when OW2 can support our already good other units more reliably and with less what if's.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by tesoe on Jul 19, 2017 15:18:16 GMT
So I give a couple examples of possible things you could do, and you pick the most extreme to nit pick as proof that Kossites don't work with her?
That doesn't seem like a very strong argument.
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Post by tesoe on Jul 19, 2017 15:24:46 GMT
The point is that by debuffing both DEF and ARM she is a great choice for an ambush unit. She let's Kossites hit and kill everything but the hardest nuts to crack.
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