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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2017 22:07:21 GMT
Yes, but it's strange for a mercenary unit with a special rule that's intended to represent it's close affiliation with a specific faction be unavailable in all theme lists for that faction, while being available in all theme forces of the other factions it works for. Sure, but then: Finally, I find weird to be able to put Sylis or Gallant in every list, but I can't put a GMCA or Ol'Rowdy. Isn't it weird? At this point, they could as well just say "One non-theme model/unit (mercs included) is allowed" and call it a day... I don't see why I should see more Precursors and Steelheads into a Trencher list than Gun Mages or Storm Knights... What's a theme forced supposed to even be at this point? With this change the most part of "thematic" would already go away, and the "limitations in list building" getting a lot less significant, so being a new "Generic theme with bonus" for being it, at this point allow one out-of theme and call it a day. Mercs have tools to cover almost any weakness already (even more if the interpretation of 1 solo, 1 unit AND 1 battle engine is the correct one)... At this point, make it at least with a bit of fluff sense and allow to pic the extra model/unti from faction too... At least things like Gun Mages or other model types that got screwed by being included into a bad theme will see some play too (and again, I don't see why my Storm Division theme should be able to include Nyss Archers or Forgeguards but not Gun Mages or Rangers...).
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Post by pangurban on Jul 10, 2017 22:29:51 GMT
Sure, but then: What's a theme forced supposed to even be at this point? With this change the most part of "thematic" would already go away, and the "limitations in list building" getting a lot less significant, so being a new "Generic theme with bonus" for being it, at this point allow one out-of theme and call it a day. Mercs have tools to cover almost any weakness already (even more if the interpretation of 1 solo, 1 unit AND 1 battle engine is the correct one)... At this point, make it at least with a bit of fluff sense and allow to pic the extra model/unti from faction too... At least things like Gun Mages or other model types that got screwed by being included into a bad theme will see some play too (and again, I don't see why my Storm Division theme should be able to include Nyss Archers or Forgeguards but not Gun Mages or Rangers...). Honestly, just scrap it altogether. There is far too little value in this for the further watering down of themes and potential balance issues it causes. I'm happy to see out-of-the-box ideas getting floated around in CID, but this one doesn't have enough merit IMO.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 10, 2017 22:35:26 GMT
From a game play perspective themes are meant to be the way to play competitively. They are a selection of a base set of units that push your list into a certain playstyle.
From a fluff perspective, themes represent certain tactics, divisions and armies in the world.
Both can all for some Mercenary inclusion.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 10, 2017 22:47:50 GMT
I don't like it. I thought that themes were supposed to restrict building options.
Then there's the disparity in number of available models Khador and Cygnar get a whole heap of models, the Protectorate, Cryx and Retribution get some and hordes kind of do too.
This will need extensive playtesting for me to like it.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Jul 10, 2017 22:54:30 GMT
Much like holiday events, transmogs and new mounts aren't really content for World of Warcraft, neither are Theme forces and their adjustments for WM/H.
I really don't get how these kind of things should add anything to the playing experience or make the game deeper and more interesting.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 10, 2017 23:10:41 GMT
Much like holiday events, transmogs and new mounts aren't really content for World of Warcraft, neither are Theme forces and their adjustments for WM/H. I really don't get how these kind of things should add anything to the playing experience or make the game deeper and more interesting. More layers of complexity. Alternative rules and building strategies create more options.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 10, 2017 23:16:03 GMT
For those that can't see the change, here it is: Theme Force changes:In this CID cycle we are testing a new core rules change that will change the way Theme Forces work. In addition to the models that are allowed in a Theme Force, a player may take one Mercenary/Minion Solo, Unit and Battle Engine. The goal for this change is to allow for deeper list building inside of themes lists by allowing for more options while remaining thematic. The Mercenary/Minion model must be able to work for the faction taking it, it doesn't become a free-for-all. Additionally, please note that with the current wording that Mercenary and Minion theme forces will remain unchanged with this rule and will not be able to include these additional models types. In addition to the models listed in the Army Composition section of each theme force, a non-Mercenary, non-Minion army made using a theme force can include up to one Mercenary solo, unit, and battle engine, including Mercenary models/units with the Partisan rule. The Mercenary models/units must work the army’s Faction. If a Mercenary model that can control warjacks or warbeasts is included in an army, the warjacks and warbeasts that model controls can also be included. For example, if the Mercenary solo Gastone Crosse is included in an army made using a theme force, the army can also include Mercenary warjacks controlled by Crosse.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 10, 2017 23:20:09 GMT
More layers of complexity. Alternative rules and building strategies create more options. Now if only all the factions had similar access a wide range of valuable models...
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 10, 2017 23:32:02 GMT
At the end of the cid models there is a hex blasting puppet stringing bone shaking 4 point solo that works for almost every faction. Yes even convergence. So i think they are going to make more mercs and minion availability
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jul 10, 2017 23:39:05 GMT
I was sceptical at first, but these changes open up a lot of list building opportunities and diversify the meta. The popular/good theme lists (Oracles, Storm Division, Ghost fleet etc.) are so maxed out that any change is a sidegrade at best.
For example, the if legion player wants to include WE&SJ in her Fyanna Oracles list, she has to drop Angelius and (free) forsaken.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 10, 2017 23:47:54 GMT
I like the change cause it means i can use my mercs. I also like it from fluff perspective. Like the popularity of theme lists made our so that mercs weren't being hired in armies. That would have caused an economic depression for ask the mercs. But i can understand how people might dislike it. I do dislike how every protectorate list will now run idrians cause they are so good.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jul 11, 2017 0:06:25 GMT
I do dislike how every protectorate list will now run idrians cause they are so good. How so? Idrians are an expensive unit that doesn't give you any free points in the current theme forces. Idrians also don't get any benefits from theme unless you count the 2" deployment. If anything, PoM players will reach for Gaston and Galleon for free points, huge based girded colossal or blessed gun ports.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 11, 2017 0:18:32 GMT
Just as a jumping off point, I think the ultimate problem here is going to be that this won't actually help the variety of builds in theme forces. You're just going to see the current builds shucked and replaced with builds that use Piper, Ragman, etc. Right now the biggest advantage to playing out of theme is that you can pull off significantly jankier combos and synergies with some of these mercs. Playing in theme is fun and several of the lists are quite strong, but you will still have deficiencies. If themes are too dull and constricting, the best way to address that is to make them less boring, or design them so that there is significant flexibility in how they can be run, not shoehorn mercs in.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2017 0:26:43 GMT
I was sceptical at first, but these changes open up a lot of list building opportunities and diversify the meta. The popular/good theme lists (Oracles, Storm Division, Ghost fleet etc.) are so maxed out that any change is a sidegrade at best. For example, the if legion player wants to include WE&SJ in her Fyanna Oracles list, she has to drop Angelius and (free) forsaken. Trust me. Spending 4 points to have Tough and Pathfinder is not a sidegrade to Storm Division, it's a massive buff, and I'm a Cygnar player.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 11, 2017 0:33:25 GMT
I do dislike how every protectorate list will now run idrians cause they are so good. How so? Idrians are an expensive unit that doesn't give you any free points in the current theme forces. Idrians also don't get any benefits from theme unless you count the 2" deployment. If anything, PoM players will reach for Gaston and Galleon for free points, huge based girded colossal or blessed gun ports. The first thing i expect to happen is to make all those benefits apply to friendly faction. Also no choir buffs.
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