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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 11, 2017 0:39:22 GMT
I was sceptical at first, but these changes open up a lot of list building opportunities and diversify the meta. The popular/good theme lists (Oracles, Storm Division, Ghost fleet etc.) are so maxed out that any change is a sidegrade at best. For example, the if legion player wants to include WE&SJ in her Fyanna Oracles list, she has to drop Angelius and (free) forsaken. Trust me. Spending 4 points to have Tough and Pathfinder is not a sidegrade to Storm Division, it's a massive buff, and I'm a Cygnar player. I gotta be honest, the Piper being allowed in SD is a game changer. I'm not quite convinced it is broken with the new storm lance changes pending. But it definitely reduces the weaknesses of the theme.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 11, 2017 0:54:59 GMT
Hey guys, how do you like my new Jaws of the Wolf list?
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf
(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [7] Alexia Ciannor & the Risen [10]
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 11, 2017 0:58:48 GMT
Idrians are better than errants in every way currently, and don't lose you many points since you can take their CA for free and don't need additional support like errants do.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Jul 11, 2017 1:03:29 GMT
I was sceptical at first, but these changes open up a lot of list building opportunities and diversify the meta. The popular/good theme lists (Oracles, Storm Division, Ghost fleet etc.) are so maxed out that any change is a sidegrade at best. For example, the if legion player wants to include WE&SJ in her Fyanna Oracles list, she has to drop Angelius and (free) forsaken. I dunno about that... As far as I can tell, WE&SJ is free in Oracles, because the free solo is untyped, and you take WE&SJ as a solo.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 11, 2017 1:28:12 GMT
I was sceptical at first, but these changes open up a lot of list building opportunities and diversify the meta. The popular/good theme lists (Oracles, Storm Division, Ghost fleet etc.) are so maxed out that any change is a sidegrade at best. For example, the if legion player wants to include WE&SJ in her Fyanna Oracles list, she has to drop Angelius and (free) forsaken. I dunno about that... As far as I can tell, WE&SJ is free in Oracles, because the free solo is untyped, and you take WE&SJ as a solo. It's been stated that junior warlocks will likely not be allowed for free if this change happens. I expect that themes will be changed so that only FF models count towards points, and only FF models can be free.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 11, 2017 2:06:44 GMT
I dunno about that... As far as I can tell, WE&SJ is free in Oracles, because the free solo is untyped, and you take WE&SJ as a solo. It's been stated that junior warlocks will likely not be allowed for free if this change happens. I expect that themes will be changed so that only FF models count towards points, and only FF models can be free. Actually, I think that they said on the video that they will make the change into the junior warlock models themselves... Probably they will just divide the point cost between Wrong eye (maybe 4-5 points) and Snapjaw (the rest), and then make a rule that if you take WE you also have to take SJ. That way you would just get a normal amount of free points (4-5) taking minion junior warlocks... That said, the change is still huge... In the video, they specified that the base rule is intended with: 1) Take ALL 3 of Solo, Unit AND a Battle Engine, not just one of them 2) If they qualify for something into the theme forces, they'll also get it (like being electrical immune in Storm Division or to get to stand up in Trenchers). 3) They count for free points if they qualify for. 4) You can take everything attached to them, so you can take unit and weapon attachments (ranking officiers included, confirmed) and Warjacks and Warbeasts with BG controllers.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 11, 2017 4:15:23 GMT
By this point, I'm starting to suspect PP is doing the classic trick of "include one broken thing for the customer to see and insist gets fixed, so that the rest gets left alone" on all of their CIDs. Because I honestly cannot recall a single CID so far that didn't have some big-ticket item with a glaringly obvious error (in this case, WE&SJ at the least, though imo the whole idea is an error). Then it goes away by the end of the CID, everyone feels happy about themselves, and a bulk of the CID probably didn't get the full vetting it deserved, because everyone focused on the broken part.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 11, 2017 4:33:50 GMT
By this point, I'm starting to suspect PP is doing the classic trick of "include one broken thing for the customer to see and insist gets fixed, so that the rest gets left alone" on all of their CIDs. Because I honestly cannot recall a single CID so far that didn't have some big-ticket item with a glaringly obvious error (in this case, WE&SJ at the least, though imo the whole idea is an error). Then it goes away by the end of the CID, everyone feels happy about themselves, and a bulk of the CID probably didn't get the full vetting it deserved, because everyone focused on the broken part. I don't know that solo at the end of the models section seems broked AF so there's 2 now. I definately agree the merc rules seem purposefully unrestrictive.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 11, 2017 4:41:40 GMT
I for one like this idea a lot. I'm sure that there are some glaring examples here and there that will need to be sussed out, but on the whole I think it is a fine idea. It will certainly bring the Mercs and Minions back into some prominence within the main factions. If this idea is becoming a wild weasel and the rest of the CID is starting to slip by without much oversight I would encourage the CID participants to vocally demand more time for play-testing.
I personally don't think this "Mercs in the theme armys" move was intended to be a distractor. I'm betting that PP, the distributors, and the retailers are seeing their sales of Mercs and Minions grind to a halt with the rise of the theme armies. Throw in some list design stagnation and the potential for more #Designspace and I think that is where this idea came from.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 11, 2017 6:20:06 GMT
I agree with that.
PP has said themes are the future. But if you are only buying in themes then you aren't buying mercs or minions.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jul 11, 2017 6:45:44 GMT
I was sceptical at first, but these changes open up a lot of list building opportunities and diversify the meta. The popular/good theme lists (Oracles, Storm Division, Ghost fleet etc.) are so maxed out that any change is a sidegrade at best. For example, the if legion player wants to include WE&SJ in her Fyanna Oracles list, she has to drop Angelius and (free) forsaken. From the standard list I'd give up the third Neraph, Nephilim Bloodseer and redundant Sorceress for Wrong Eye and Snapjaw and another Shepherd/Spell Martyr; and I'd consider that a huge buff to the list that is definitely not needed.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 11, 2017 8:52:47 GMT
Finally, I find weird to be able to put Sylis or Gallant in every list, but I can't put a GMCA or Ol'Rowdy. Isn't it weird? At this point, they could as well just say "One non-theme model/unit (mercs included) is allowed" and call it a day... I don't see why I should see more Precursors and Steelheads into a Trencher list than Gun Mages or Storm Knights... I'd actually be a LOT happier with this. My personal issue with themes is that they discourage mixed lists (like Venators hiding behind Karax) and thereby even go against the fluff they are supposed to reinforce. Any erosion of that problem is highly welcome to me.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 11, 2017 9:29:24 GMT
Well they could improve non-themes, but instead opted to make themes more diverse. Former would be better, but I'll take latter nonetheless.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 11, 2017 10:51:11 GMT
How about Gorman in Ghost Fleet? If that theme was missing something it was definitely a -9 armour swing!
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 11, 2017 10:53:55 GMT
Or a cloud in front of Denny. Or an Orin next to Denny. Or just Mr Yorrick McHexblast.
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