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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 10, 2017 20:26:47 GMT
The big issue here is the asymmetry that it introduces. I made a big post on this in CID, but to whit:
- it's more of a buff to WM than Hordes, because Mercs and better than Minions (and especially Merc solos are better than Minion Solos)
- it's more of a buff to factions with good access to mercs and minions than ones that don't (so Khador and Cygnar benefit most of all...yay.)
- it's more of a buff to factions with multiple good theme lists than ones with 1 or 0 good themes
- it's more of a buff to themes that key off of units for free points than 'keyword X models/units' which is weird and arbitrary.
Feels like a case of the rich getting richer, and the poor staying dirt poor.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 10, 2017 20:41:14 GMT
If partisans count as mercs even though the partisan rule specifically states they are not mercs in your faction I'm gonna eat my shoe that is dumb.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 10, 2017 20:52:14 GMT
If partisans count as mercs even though the partisan rule specifically states they are not mercs in your faction I'm gonna eat my shoe that is dumb. They are and they do. It's dumb, but honestly it makes more sense than the alternative (which is other factions having more access to the partisan unit than the faction it's actually a partisan of) |
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Post by pangurban on Jul 10, 2017 21:03:03 GMT
Okay then how about Kara with reinholdt and A+H with Murdoch (under themes if a unit can be taken so can the attachment). That's also possible. 3x pow 14 WM shots on feat turn is a thing. Reinholdt isn't game breaking. He was tested for vanilla MKIII after all. Its just a shame that he becomes a no brainer addition. Also yes he is better than squire for her. Boosted pow 12 WM shot or boosted pow6 armor piercing? I'll take the WM shot every time. Why would any attachments be allowed? That seems inconsistent with the laid out intentention behind Gravediggers. Not to mention that's an awful lot of support cost. It's strong, but Murdoch and Aiyana weren't showing up before themes. I doubt they'll do so now. Sloan has 6 base focus. She spends 3 of them of guided fire. If she takes the Squire, she has 4 focus. She can boost damage on her shot, and have some focus left for camp or allocation. If she's running a colossal, that's good. Reinholdt gives her an extra shot. She has 3 focus. You can boost both damage shots, and have 1 left. Or you can not boost a shot and miss out on that benefit. Core rules say that if a unit is allowed, any attachments available to it are allowed as well (up to FA). Rules digest p. 25. Aiyana might be an interesting subject: she's expensive to get as a faction model, but she has two potentially very powerful effects. The question is whether that's worth more in a very specialized list such as theme forces usually are, than in a more diversified list such as vanilla lists usually are. |
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 10, 2017 21:06:54 GMT
Okay then how about Kara with reinholdt and A+H with Murdoch (under themes if a unit can be taken so can the attachment). That's also possible. 3x pow 14 WM shots on feat turn is a thing. Reinholdt isn't game breaking. He was tested for vanilla MKIII after all. Its just a shame that he becomes a no brainer addition. Also yes he is better than squire for her. Boosted pow 12 WM shot or boosted pow6 armor piercing? I'll take the WM shot every time. Why would any attachments be allowed? That seems inconsistent with the laid out intentention behind Gravediggers. Not to mention that's an awful lot of support cost. It's strong, but Murdoch and Aiyana weren't showing up before themes. I doubt they'll do so now. Sloan has 6 base focus. She spends 3 of them of guided fire. If she takes the Squire, she has 4 focus. She can boost damage on her shot, and have some focus left for camp or allocation. If she's running a colossal, that's good. Reinholdt gives her an extra shot. She has 3 focus. You can boost both damage shots, and have 1 left. Or you can not boost a shot and miss out on that benefit. Its just more options in her already impressive kit. Pre-themes I ran her with both reinholdt and A+H and it was awesome. If you don't find those options compelling that's okay but lets look at a few more. Taryn di la Rovissi in heavy metal with Sloan. Is that enough of a wake up call? You think it was hard enough to hide from sloan before, well now she gets 2x shadow fire shots to dig through to your caster. How about Anastasia di Bray to help cement first turn. The new solo guy for upkeep removal. Eiryss 1 for focus stripping. Alten for ensuring hordes can't heal that beast you just crippled. Gorman for a damage buff vs jacks. There are tons of good options here. No ... none of them are game breaking play wise but it just means there is far less of a reason to break theme and it makes some lists that much better and it's disproportionately slanted to WM over hordes. |
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Post by pangurban on Jul 10, 2017 21:07:05 GMT
If partisans count as mercs even though the partisan rule specifically states they are not mercs in your faction I'm gonna eat my shoe that is dumb. They are and they do. It's dumb, but honestly it makes more sense than the alternative (which is other factions having more access to the partisan unit than the faction it's actually a partisan of) Access becomes a wonky concept in themes anyway. I mean, Khador has as much access to Trenchers as Cygnar does if the Cygnar player is building a Storm Division list. |
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Post by streetpizza on Jul 10, 2017 21:08:15 GMT
Why would any attachments be allowed? That seems inconsistent with the laid out intentention behind Gravediggers. Not to mention that's an awful lot of support cost. It's strong, but Murdoch and Aiyana weren't showing up before themes. I doubt they'll do so now. Sloan has 6 base focus. She spends 3 of them of guided fire. If she takes the Squire, she has 4 focus. She can boost damage on her shot, and have some focus left for camp or allocation. If she's running a colossal, that's good. Reinholdt gives her an extra shot. She has 3 focus. You can boost both damage shots, and have 1 left. Or you can not boost a shot and miss out on that benefit. Core rules say that if a unit is allowed, any attachments available to it are allowed as well (up to FA). Rules digest p. 25. Aiyana might be an interesting subject: she's expensive to get as a faction model, but she has two potentially very powerful effects. The question is whether that's worth more in a very specialized list such as theme forces usually are, than in a more diversified list such as vanilla lists usually are. Also A+H are a unit and ragman is a solo. Cygnar now has a +4 damage swing available in every list. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 10, 2017 21:11:27 GMT
They are and they do. It's dumb, but honestly it makes more sense than the alternative (which is other factions having more access to the partisan unit than the faction it's actually a partisan of) Access becomes a wonky concept in themes anyway. I mean, Khador has as much access to Trenchers as Cygnar does if the Cygnar player is building a Storm Division list. Yes, but it's strange for a mercenary unit with a special rule that's intended to represent it's close affiliation with a specific faction be unavailable in all theme lists for that faction, while being available in all theme forces of the other factions it works for. |
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Post by W0lfBane on Jul 10, 2017 21:15:59 GMT
If partisans count as mercs even though the partisan rule specifically states they are not mercs in your faction I'm gonna eat my shoe that is dumb. They are and they do. It's dumb, but honestly it makes more sense than the alternative (which is other factions having more access to the partisan unit than the faction it's actually a partisan of) Eats shoe* |
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Post by Aegis on Jul 10, 2017 21:34:12 GMT
The big issue here is the asymmetry that it introduces. I made a big post on this in CID, but to whit: - it's more of a buff to WM than Hordes, because Mercs and better than Minions (and especially Merc solos are better than Minion Solos) - it's more of a buff to factions with good access to mercs and minions than ones that don't (so Khador and Cygnar benefit most of all...yay.) - it's more of a buff to factions with multiple good theme lists than ones with 1 or 0 good themes - it's more of a buff to themes that key off of units for free points than 'keyword X models/units' which is weird and arbitrary. Feels like a case of the rich getting richer, and the poor staying dirt poor. It could be a surprise, but this time I totally agree with you. The change is bonkers for some lists, adds disparity (ex. Convergence will get 0 from this, Cygnar, Khador and Menoth a lot), and some models will outright break some lists (WE&SJ I'm looking at you). It will also be the final and definitive death of any out of theme option, despite what they wrote. If they wanted a theme centric meta with very very few out-of-theme armies around, we already had it. Now with mercs included into themes the option of building out of theme is totally death, decomposed, and dispersed to the wind. Finally, I find weird to be able to put Sylis or Gallant in every list, but I can't put a GMCA or Ol'Rowdy. Isn't it weird? At this point, they could as well just say "One non-theme model/unit (mercs included) is allowed" and call it a day... I don't see why I should see more Precursors and Steelheads into a Trencher list than Gun Mages or Storm Knights... |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 10, 2017 21:38:32 GMT
The big issue here is the asymmetry that it introduces. I made a big post on this in CID, but to whit: - it's more of a buff to WM than Hordes, because Mercs and better than Minions (and especially Merc solos are better than Minion Solos) - it's more of a buff to factions with good access to mercs and minions than ones that don't (so Khador and Cygnar benefit most of all...yay.) - it's more of a buff to factions with multiple good theme lists than ones with 1 or 0 good themes - it's more of a buff to themes that key off of units for free points than 'keyword X models/units' which is weird and arbitrary. Feels like a case of the rich getting richer, and the poor staying dirt poor. It could be a surprise, but this time I totally agree with you. The change is bonkers for some lists, adds disparity (ex. Convergence will get 0 from this, Cygnar, Khador and Menoth a lot), and some models will outright break some lists (WE&SJ I'm looking at you). It will also be the final and definitive death of any out of theme option, despite what they wrote. If they wanted a theme centric meta with very very few out-of-theme armies around, we already had it. Now with mercs included into themes the option of building out of theme is totally death, decomposed, and dispersed to the wind. Finally, I find weird to be able to put Sylis or Gallant in every list, but I can't put a GMCA or Ol'Rowdy. Isn't it weird? At this point, they could as well just say "One non-theme model/unit (mercs included) is allowed" and call it a day... I don't see why I should see more Precursors and Steelheads into a Trencher list than Gun Mages or Storm Knights... Wait... Aegis agrees with me? Is the world ending? Is hell freeing over?  In all seriousness, I don't think they properly thought through all the difference balance aspects this change introduces to the game, in particular regarding WM vs. Hordes access to Mercs/Minions. Access to Reinholdt, Eiryss, Ragman, Gibbs, Sylys etc. vs. Access to...the Croc Doc? The Thrullg? I guess bellows crew is neat... |
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Post by pangurban on Jul 10, 2017 21:41:28 GMT
Access becomes a wonky concept in themes anyway. I mean, Khador has as much access to Trenchers as Cygnar does if the Cygnar player is building a Storm Division list. Yes, but it's strange for a mercenary unit with a special rule that's intended to represent it's close affiliation with a specific faction be unavailable in all theme lists for that faction, while being available in all theme forces of the other factions it works for. Sure, but then: Finally, I find weird to be able to put Sylis or Gallant in every list, but I can't put a GMCA or Ol'Rowdy. Isn't it weird? At this point, they could as well just say "One non-theme model/unit (mercs included) is allowed" and call it a day... I don't see why I should see more Precursors and Steelheads into a Trencher list than Gun Mages or Storm Knights... What's a theme forced supposed to even be at this point? |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 10, 2017 21:43:27 GMT
Yes, but it's strange for a mercenary unit with a special rule that's intended to represent it's close affiliation with a specific faction be unavailable in all theme lists for that faction, while being available in all theme forces of the other factions it works for. Sure, but then: Finally, I find weird to be able to put Sylis or Gallant in every list, but I can't put a GMCA or Ol'Rowdy. Isn't it weird? At this point, they could as well just say "One non-theme model/unit (mercs included) is allowed" and call it a day... I don't see why I should see more Precursors and Steelheads into a Trencher list than Gun Mages or Storm Knights... What's a theme forced supposed to even be at this point? Oh, I agree. See my post on the CID forum for all the reasons I dislike this change, but between not including partisans and including partisans, including partisans was the right choice. Everything ELSE about this change is firetrucking stupid. |
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 10, 2017 21:49:45 GMT
To comment on Idrians in Interdiction, it should be remembered that unless you're playing it for +2deployment and blessed, which is certainly viable, the Idrians are not getting you any free models. For Reinholdt+Kara, I haven't played against her recently, but I think Reinholdt vs a Squire is a wash. Once again, I want to ask, is one unit gaining a buff from a Merc/Minion solo enough to really imbalance things? Certainly significant, but I don't think it'll rock the boat as much as people are saying. I do agree that they should amend Theme benefits so that only in theme models can be added for free. Yeah. Im more excited for getting Idrians in the jack theme. Would give Amon a lot more breathing space. Does nothing for the Exemolar though. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 10, 2017 22:00:16 GMT
Now, if we could only convince PP to make Boomhowler Partisian [troll], I'd have no merc models to unload from Mk2.
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