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Post by ferran on Jul 10, 2017 8:00:04 GMT
3 swordman with battle lust are are 24-27 damage to an arm 20 jack, with precision strike, is = to a inutile jack. Combine with BFS, and you are "destroying" 2 jacks each turn. You will only lose 2-3 swordmen, and azrael and zuriel are waiting for the counter charge, as well as the raptors with battlelust...
Kallus 2 is working relativelly well for me.
Greetings.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 10, 2017 8:36:32 GMT
3 swordman with battle lust are are 24-27 damage to an arm 20 jack, with precision strike, is = to a inutile jack. Combine with BFS, and you are "destroying" 2 jacks each turn. You will only lose 2-3 swordmen, and azrael and zuriel are waiting for the counter charge, as well as the raptors with battlelust... Kallus 2 is working relativelly well for me. Greetings. How are you giving swordsmen precision strike? -und_ed
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Jul 10, 2017 8:57:20 GMT
3 swordman with battle lust are are 24-27 damage to an arm 20 jack, with precision strike, is = to a inutile jack. Combine with BFS, and you are "destroying" 2 jacks each turn. You will only lose 2-3 swordmen, and azrael and zuriel are waiting for the counter charge, as well as the raptors with battlelust... Kallus 2 is working relativelly well for me. Greetings. How are you giving swordsmen precision strike? -und_ed With blighted nyss warlord I guess.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 10, 2017 9:58:35 GMT
Ah right, that'll do it.
-und_ed
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 10, 2017 13:19:55 GMT
My complaint with swordsmen is lack of pathfinder. Yes, they are capable damage dealers. But they either stand out in the open to get blasted off the table. Or they waste a turn positioning around the terrain. At least warspears can stand behind a wall or in a forest and still charge the full distance.
RtW means that the jacks out threat the swordsmen (and warspears) by 2 without Kallus' feat. So they can just stand around and wait with counter charge outside threat. If you do commit, the counter charge will proc set defense and so both infantry are def 14. Arm 18 will not survive that pow 19 much better though. So the swordsmen would do better in terms of number of models.
Pow 17 battle lust warspears do 15 damage a piece with the assault and the charge. So you commit 2 warspears per jack. As long as you're not the unluckiest in the world, those 4 boxes won't leave it terribly functional. Or if you are moderately lucky, the jack is just dead.
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Terrible
Jul 10, 2017 13:27:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by snotling on Jul 10, 2017 13:27:07 GMT
The problem with warspears never was damage. The problem is their deadness if anything shoots at them.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 10, 2017 13:35:56 GMT
The problem with warspears never was damage. The problem is their deadness if anything shoots at them. true. The BB armor aura, terrain, and a Ogrun Bokor (thinking about 2) make for an okay approach. Into the Khador rat 4 that is. Cygnar would have no problem clearing them. But that's not the intended drop.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 10, 2017 14:12:16 GMT
The problem with warspears never was damage. The problem is their deadness if anything shoots at them. true. The BB armor aura, terrain, and a Ogrun Bokor (thinking about 2) make for an okay approach. Into the Khador rat 4 that is. Cygnar would have no problem clearing them. But that's not the intended drop. I started MKIII playing Bethayne with a blightbringer and warspears. After 2 months they got into combat once, and then only against a newbie. Khador just ruin them with sniper battalions, Cygner murder them by accident, and nothing else really struggled either. Very sad, they've been dropped from my lists entirely. -und_ed
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jul 10, 2017 15:28:09 GMT
I started MKIII playing Bethayne with a blightbringer and warspears. After 2 months they got into combat once, and then only against a newbie. Khador just ruin them with sniper battalions, Cygner murder them by accident, and nothing else really struggled either. Very sad, they've been dropped from my lists entirely. -und_ed Oh I completely understand. I hate the fact they are another instance of "this would be great... if it worked". I really like the unit and the theme of the ogrun (more so than blighted nyss). So I'm trying to force an application where they could work. So far, as has been said, it's not working. but it could and that's why I'm still running with the idea. But I still think that Thagrosh 1 was better at delivery and consistency. I don't mind swapping. But I really wanted to make it work with the threat bonus from the feat. If the CID rotation we get is not for Ogrun... I will be infinitely disappointed.
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Terrible
Jul 11, 2017 14:46:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by newsun on Jul 11, 2017 14:46:36 GMT
Triggering Alpha Hunter with Abby 2 against a 8+ heavy Karchev list is hard because of few eligible targets for Abby to kill easily and the Forge Seers and other solos, mechanics etc. usually being played way back to deny the Abby player easy application of Alpha Hunter (or at least making it very dangerous for Abby to try). In my games with Abby against Karchev I have been able to successfully deny him use of Road to War because of conservative placement of the only really easy targets for it in Abby's list (Shredder, Forsaken, Hellions) but have also had similar difficulty in applying Alpha Hunter. That said, the matchup is entirely playable (especially with multiple Carniveans in the list and of course in Oracles). I always bring spell martyrs with her and blood seer, just to deal with those pesky back line solos and get alpha off.
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Terrible
Jul 12, 2017 7:11:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by cainuslupus on Jul 12, 2017 7:11:05 GMT
true. The BB armor aura, terrain, and a Ogrun Bokor (thinking about 2) make for an okay approach. Into the Khador rat 4 that is. Cygnar would have no problem clearing them. But that's not the intended drop. I started MKIII playing Bethayne with a blightbringer and warspears. After 2 months they got into combat once, and then only against a newbie. Khador just ruin them with sniper battalions, Cygner murder them by accident, and nothing else really struggled either. Very sad, they've been dropped from my lists entirely. -und_ed At start of MK3 I've played them a lot. They did nothing other than dying. They need 8 boxes or Arm 18 to become relevant. Or big drop in cost.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Jul 12, 2017 12:14:52 GMT
They're really bad into match ups where the enemy has enough ranged presence to remove them from the table before they get any work done. I'm sure one could find a niche role for them against certain factions like Trolls or Grymkin which probably won't have the means to kill them before they get to attack. The problem is that's a very narrow set of circumstances to be worth investing 20 points per unit, plus support, plus potentially a Blightbringer, plus breaking theme. It isn't that Warspears are awful in every situation just that those situations are so few and far between that you're better off not bothering.
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Post by snotling on Jul 12, 2017 12:59:30 GMT
they need a cid, or a theme. probably both.
As themes go so far, luckily chances for the next theme beeing an ogrun one are high. Something like blindwater would already help them a lot, because a boosted pow12 wouldnt be enough to kill an ogrun anymore.
I also expect it to allow for hellmouths, just because they are in no other themes so far.
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Post by Cheesebeard on Jul 12, 2017 21:11:09 GMT
they need a cid, or a theme. probably both. As themes go so far, luckily chances for the next theme beeing an ogrun one are high. Something like blindwater would already help them a lot, because a boosted pow12 wouldnt be enough to kill an ogrun anymore. I also expect it to allow for hellmouths, just because they are in no other themes so far. If the upcoming Legion theme doesn't allow Ogrun and Hellmouth, along with a Blightbringer for support, it will be sad times, indeed. Even with all of that, they could use some CID TLC to make that more viable than other themes.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Jul 13, 2017 8:54:54 GMT
They're really bad into match ups where the enemy has enough ranged presence to remove them from the table before they get any work done. I'm sure one could find a niche role for them against certain factions like Trolls or Grymkin which probably won't have the means to kill them before they get to attack. The problem is that's a very narrow set of circumstances to be worth investing 20 points per unit, plus support, plus potentially a Blightbringer, plus breaking theme. It isn't that Warspears are awful in every situation just that those situations are so few and far between that you're better off not bothering. The problem is that as high-ish armoured troops with boxes, their niche is supposed to be playing into a strong ranged game, being inefficient to kill with guns. The low boxes for their cost however simply makes them ineffective at their supposed niche. It also doesn't help that the gargantuan whose entire reason for being is to buff infantry is not allowed in the only theme that sports the infantry he wants to buff. -und_ed
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