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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 7, 2017 20:53:41 GMT
I do think that grand slam would be fine as a trade if it went to 11 points. Follow up allows for too many abuse cases because combo smite is aimable, rather than directly away. I would be fine with this. 11 points with grand slam sounds like a good place to be in. Okay, we've solved the Marauder. what's next?
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 7, 2017 20:59:36 GMT
Well since the debate is livelier than I thought, here's a question:
Let's assume that PP nerfs the Marauder into the ground like what happened to the Mad Dog. Where would Khador go then? I assume they would move onto the Juggernaut. With Harkevich/Karchev that would mean you're fielding at max 2 less heavies. Would this be a meaningful change to what people are perceiving as a negative play experience or would it just further restrict Khador's jack pool?
I think that any nerf to the Marauder probably needs to be accompanied by a fix to the Berserker chassis, assuming they're supposed to be Khador's discount jack option.
On a slight tangent, how "heavy" does a jack have to be for it to be considered a "heavy?" I know beasts have the option of forgoing ARM for DEF, but I think it's fairly universal that light jacks are DEF~12 ARM~16 while heavies are ARM18+. Would making the Berserker chassis have the full 34 boxes of a standard Khadoran heavy, but with a reduced quality statline of perhaps 12/18 be appealing, assuming something positive happens regarding Unstable.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 7, 2017 21:07:47 GMT
Well since the debate is livelier than I thought, here's a question: Let's assume that PP nerfs the Marauder into the ground like what happened to the Mad Dog. Where would Khador go then? I assume they would move onto the Juggernaut. With Harkevich/Karchev that would mean you're fielding at max 2 less heavies. Would this be a meaningful change to what people are perceiving as a negative play experience or would it just further restrict Khador's jack pool? I think that any nerf to the Marauder probably needs to be accompanied by a fix to the Berserker chassis, assuming they're supposed to be Khador's discount jack option. On a slight tangent, how "heavy" does a jack have to be for it to be considered a "heavy?" I know beasts have the option of forgoing ARM for DEF, but I think it's fairly universal that light jacks are DEF~12 ARM~16 while heavies are ARM18+. Would making the Berserker chassis have the full 34 boxes of a standard Khadoran heavy, but with a reduced quality statline of perhaps 12/18 be appealing, assuming something positive happens regarding Unstable. The Berserker already HAS 11/18 for a statline. I think that anything 10 points and under should not have the full heavy statline, simply because the baseline impact of 10/20 and 30+ boxes is worth nearly that much on it's own. I think a better fix for the Berserker is to up it's Mat to 6, and change unstable somehow to make it both less crippling and less swingy (as I've mentioned previously, a 7" AOE of Pow 14s is pretty damn scary at the moment, so much so that making unstable more reliable without downgrading the effectiveness of the explosion would take them straight from underpowered to overpowered IMO.)
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 7, 2017 21:13:11 GMT
The Berserker already HAS 11/18 for a statline. I think that anything 10 points and under should not have the full heavy statline, simply because the baseline impact of 10/20 and 30+ boxes is worth nearly that much on it's own. I think a better fix for the Berserker is to up it's Mat to 6, and change unstable somehow to make it both less crippling and less swingy (as I've mentioned previously, a 7" AOE of Pow 14s is pretty damn scary at the moment, so much so that making unstable more reliable without downgrading the effectiveness of the explosion would take them straight from underpowered to overpowered IMO.) Well, then the question is how to not make it redundant.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 7, 2017 21:16:20 GMT
I just like debate. In addition, when Cid starts, other people will also be suggesting their ideas there. I get that. That's the main reason I'm participating also (white knighting for Khador being a close second )
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 7, 2017 21:44:12 GMT
The Berserker already HAS 11/18 for a statline. I think that anything 10 points and under should not have the full heavy statline, simply because the baseline impact of 10/20 and 30+ boxes is worth nearly that much on it's own. I think a better fix for the Berserker is to up it's Mat to 6, and change unstable somehow to make it both less crippling and less swingy (as I've mentioned previously, a 7" AOE of Pow 14s is pretty damn scary at the moment, so much so that making unstable more reliable without downgrading the effectiveness of the explosion would take them straight from underpowered to overpowered IMO.) I'm totally with you on the MAT6 and change to Unstable.
However, if DEF11-12 ARM18 is a bit too much, then perhaps keep its boxes but go to DEF12-13 ARM16-17? What is the lower limit for the defensive stats of a heavy jack. I'm trying to keep the boxes, since it's Khador's thing(I think?), but minimizing its impact with lower ARM with higher DEF to shake things up for the jack stable.
Another point on Unstable, does the community want to see it keep the exploding part? What if the jack just took a point of damage per Focus over 1 that it uses to an available system box. If it has not systems left, it can't spend focus.
A totally different direction could be have Unstable automatically trigger if the jack spends 3 focus, but make the explosion similar to Rain of Death, POW14 b2b and POW7 within 3". Also, have it trigger as soon as the the 3rd focus spent is resolved to prevent shenanigans like sprinting into enemy lines and detonating.
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Post by gobber on Jul 7, 2017 21:48:04 GMT
I do think that grand slam would be fine as a trade if it went to 11 points. Follow up allows for too many abuse cases because combo smite is aimable, rather than directly away. I would be fine with this. 11 points with grand slam sounds like a good place to be in. Okay, we've solved the Marauder. what's next? Wait why are we giving free slam power attacks to a Jack that doesn't make slam power attacks? Combo smites are different; it'd still get the extra two inches but Marauders want to charge otherwise they lose out on aiming and a lot of damage potential (like 8 pow *and* 1 to 2 extra dice). Slam Power Attack=/=slammed; this one isn't fully thought out.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 7, 2017 21:50:20 GMT
Another point on Unstable, does the community want to see it keep the exploding part? Probably because its so intrinsic to the lore, But so was the Withershadow Combines recombulating abilities, so who knows? Honestly I want a solid Niche for it first, unstable second. As it is right now, the Berserker chassis pretty much only finds value in being spammed. It has too much overlap in some places, and too weak in others.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 7, 2017 22:04:34 GMT
The Berserker already HAS 11/18 for a statline. I think that anything 10 points and under should not have the full heavy statline, simply because the baseline impact of 10/20 and 30+ boxes is worth nearly that much on it's own. I think a better fix for the Berserker is to up it's Mat to 6, and change unstable somehow to make it both less crippling and less swingy (as I've mentioned previously, a 7" AOE of Pow 14s is pretty damn scary at the moment, so much so that making unstable more reliable without downgrading the effectiveness of the explosion would take them straight from underpowered to overpowered IMO.) I'm totally with you on the MAT6 and change to Unstable.
However, if DEF11-12 ARM18 is a bit too much, then perhaps keep its boxes but go to DEF12-13 ARM16-17? What is the lower limit for the defensive stats of a heavy jack. I'm trying to keep the boxes, since it's Khador's thing(I think?), but minimizing its impact with lower ARM with higher DEF to shake things up for the jack stable.
Another point on Unstable, does the community want to see it keep the exploding part? What if the jack just took a point of damage per Focus over 1 that it uses to an available system box. If it has not systems left, it can't spend focus.
A totally different direction could be have Unstable automatically trigger if the jack spends 3 focus, but make the explosion similar to Rain of Death, POW14 b2b and POW7 within 3". Also, have it trigger as soon as the the 3rd focus spent is resolved to prevent shenanigans like sprinting into enemy lines and detonating.
I mean, I'm kind of averse to anything that's going to decrease the amount of light infantry we see - they're already rarer than snowflakes in July. I think that a good way to balance the chassis would be to add a rule like the following: Corroded Hull: whenever a damage roll exceeds this model's ARM value, double the amount of damage it takes. Would let you keep the Heavy statline/number of boxes, but make them much more fragile, opening up room for improvements to the statline and/or the addition of more abilities.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 7, 2017 22:31:12 GMT
I would be fine with this. 11 points with grand slam sounds like a good place to be in. Okay, we've solved the Marauder. what's next? Wait why are we giving free slam power attacks to a Jack that doesn't make slam power attacks? Combo smites are different; it'd still get the extra two inches but Marauders want to charge otherwise they lose out on aiming and a lot of damage potential (like 8 pow *and* 1 to 2 extra dice). Slam Power Attack=/=slammed; this one isn't fully thought out. Pretty sure Grand Slam would still give the +2" of slam, so...
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 7, 2017 22:56:53 GMT
What kind of niche do you want it to have? With a re-read of the Berserker chassis fluff, it seems the Mad Dog stomps on infantry, the Rager protectors, and the Berserker...?
oncomingstorm Mechanically, wouldn't it just be simpler to just give the chassis a lower ARM score than create new rule for double damage? I guess it let's the jack shrug off small arm fire, but then completely fold as soon as anything gets past the armor. It could work, but feels like a rule that would have to be tested to get a proper feel for it.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 7, 2017 22:57:54 GMT
What kind of niche do you want it to have? With a re-read of the Berserker chassis fluff, it seems the Mad Dog stomps on infantry, the Rager protectors, and the Berserker...? Berserks?
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 7, 2017 23:03:37 GMT
What kind of niche do you want it to have? With a re-read of the Berserker chassis fluff, it seems the Mad Dog stomps on infantry, the Rager protectors, and the Berserker...? Berserks? That would imply infantry killing right? Then what's the Mad Dog to do?
Also without overtake and RNG2 I've found most models with berserk aren't particularly good.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 7, 2017 23:12:53 GMT
At the moment the Mad Dog Tramples Infantry (Badly) the Rager Protects (Badly) and the Berserker Berserks (Badly).
Even without Unstable none of them are really all that hot stuff.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jul 7, 2017 23:19:34 GMT
That would imply infantry killing right? Then what's the Mad Dog to do?
Also without overtake and RNG2 I've found most models with berserk aren't particularly good.
Here was an idea I posted a few pages back: ------------------------------ Change unstable to an ability on each Berserker jack that they can use at the cost of one cortex box. Mad dog gets "Unstable [spd]: once per activation, this model may use unstable. When it does, it gains +2 spd, and suffers 1 damage to its first available cortex box. Unstable last for 1 turn." Berserker loses 1 pow on its axes, but gets "Unstable [str]: once per activation, this model may use unstable. When it does, it gains +2 str, and suffers 1 damage to its first available cortex box. Unstable lasts for 1 turn." Rager gets "Unstable [Unyielding]: once per activation, this model may use unstable. When it does, it gains unyielding, and suffers 1 damage to its first available cortex box. Unstable lasts for 1 turn." All three get "Time Bomb: If this model ends its activation with a disabled cortex, all models within 3" of it suffer an unboostable pow 14 damage roll. This model is then destroyed." --------------------------- From what I can tell, the (ineptly named) rager is supposed to be a shield guard that hangs back and shoots stuff. It's bad at it, even aiming. I'd like it to be a shield guard that can stick in a fight and hold stuff back. The Berserker should be the most anti-armor option. But it should have a good chance of only getting a turn of it in. The Mad dog should be a trampeling maniac. It should run down models, and demand attention.
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