|
Post by jisidro on Jun 27, 2017 15:57:23 GMT
On the overpowered means can't beat it unless you dedicate unordinate etc. I'll bring up Caine 3. So far the only counterplay I've been able to figure out is hope there is a building in the middle of the board and not a forest. Also bring 2 shield guards (4 if he has taryn). Or scew defense like 17+. If you don't have a list line that say bye bye caster-senpai Caine 3 is an idiotic caster by PP. Not necessarily OP just not really a game. Caine goes first and crushes an opponent on turn 2, or he loses. There is hardly a difference there.
Why does he lose? He can just keep himself safe and shoot at the forward elements. Every report I read/hear says there where Charger still to go when the enemy caster died...
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 20:55:24 GMT
Caine 3 is an idiotic caster by PP. Not necessarily OP just not really a game. Caine goes first and crushes an opponent on turn 2, or he loses. There is hardly a difference there.
Why does he lose? He can just keep himself safe and shoot at the forward elements. Every report I read/hear says there where Charger still to go when the enemy caster died...
If you fail to kill the caster, you're dead. You you try to play a long game, you are dead. His statline ensures that.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 27, 2017 21:25:29 GMT
I have played a fair few games with Caine 3 now, and he is the weak point of the list, Ace can sometimes buy you a turn with Stealth, but if you invest in more Defensive measures like Sentinels for Shield Guard, you reduce his offensive output, which is what you really want to stack
|
|
|
Post by catulle on Jun 27, 2017 22:11:32 GMT
AoEs are accepted as part of the game because every faction has some access to them E-leaps are almost entirely a Cygnar only ability. When it comes to shooting your own model Cygnar is the only faction to have that ability and NOT HAVE THE TARGET DIE. That is something that AoEs do not share. That part sets e-leaps apart. Circle can also do this; it's very niche and involves some leveraging of "bad" options while ignoring the faction's better ways to clear infantry, but Cygnar ain't the only choice for this tactic (see the Stormlord, Kreuger).
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 27, 2017 23:13:21 GMT
AoEs are accepted as part of the game because every faction has some access to them E-leaps are almost entirely a Cygnar only ability. When it comes to shooting your own model Cygnar is the only faction to have that ability and NOT HAVE THE TARGET DIE. That is something that AoEs do not share. That part sets e-leaps apart. Circle can also do this; it's very niche and involves some leveraging of "bad" options while ignoring the faction's better ways to clear infantry, but Cygnar ain't the only choice for this tactic (see the Stormlord, Kreuger). Was going to post this. Krueger will be sacrificed on the altar of getting leaps nerfed
|
|
|
Post by catulle on Jun 28, 2017 0:21:47 GMT
Circle can also do this; it's very niche and involves some leveraging of "bad" options while ignoring the faction's better ways to clear infantry, but Cygnar ain't the only choice for this tactic (see the Stormlord, Kreuger). Was going to post this. Krueger will be sacrificed on the altar of getting leaps nerfed Well, he is a dickhead; I wouldn't feel bad for him... More seriously, 'leaps becoming attacks I suspect would be fine. Assuming they're not already alright, I could do with seeing more evidence. Certainly Blast is easier to defend against and elec-immune proccing 'leaps is stupid but I reckon it's a matter of figuring the lightest touch necessary.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 28, 2017 0:31:09 GMT
Was going to post this. Krueger will be sacrificed on the altar of getting leaps nerfed Well, he is a dickhead; I wouldn't feel bad for him... More seriously, 'leaps becoming attacks I suspect would be fine. Assuming they're not already alright, I could do with seeing more evidence. Certainly Blast is easier to defend against and elec-immune proccing 'leaps is stupid but I reckon it's a matter of figuring the lightest touch necessary. I still don't get hew electrically immune proccing leaps is stupid. Its a cool strat but its very rarely worth it.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Jun 28, 2017 3:39:34 GMT
Honestly, the only point I feel goes too far on the "sparknode" issue is with Storm Pods. If you are using actual models to leap there is atleast an opportunity cost involved.
|
|
|
Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 28, 2017 3:51:08 GMT
Honestly, the only point I feel goes too far on the "sparknode" issue is with Storm Pods. If you are using actual models to leap there is atleast an opportunity cost involved. I mean, I get your point. But there are only 3 pods per stormwall now. So, there is an oppurtunity cost to it. The pod could be saved for a later time, or used to contest a zone/flag (which there will be more of in SR17). Now, maybe that isn't enough, but it is something.
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Jun 28, 2017 3:56:09 GMT
I still don't get hew electrically immune proccing leaps is stupid. Its a cool strat but its very rarely worth it. You can run one model into position in order to get 4 + base size" of additional range and rolling to hit your own low DEF model in the back arc instead of their high DEF model in cover/concealment, while also ignoring anti shooting tech like Shield Guard, Sac Pawn and Shield Guard, and not generating souls and corpses or triggering anything else that requires an attack. And it doesn't matter how many attacks you take or how squishy your actual target model is because they are completely immune to said attacks.
|
|
|
Post by Swampmist on Jun 28, 2017 4:15:06 GMT
Honestly, the only point I feel goes too far on the "sparknode" issue is with Storm Pods. If you are using actual models to leap there is atleast an opportunity cost involved. I mean, I get your point. But there are only 3 pods per stormwall now. So, there is an oppurtunity cost to it. The pod could be saved for a later time, or used to contest a zone/flag (which there will be more of in SR17). Now, maybe that isn't enough, but it is something. You only have to kill a few models to make the trade more than worth it, nothing stopping you from saving a pod until late game.
|
|
|
Post by catulle on Jun 28, 2017 9:08:17 GMT
Well, he is a dickhead; I wouldn't feel bad for him... More seriously, 'leaps becoming attacks I suspect would be fine. Assuming they're not already alright, I could do with seeing more evidence. Certainly Blast is easier to defend against and elec-immune proccing 'leaps is stupid but I reckon it's a matter of figuring the lightest touch necessary. I still don't get hew electrically immune proccing leaps is stupid. Its a cool strat but its very rarely worth it. I meant thematically, rather than mechanically.
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 28, 2017 9:41:27 GMT
I still don't get hew electrically immune proccing leaps is stupid. Its a cool strat but its very rarely worth it. You can run one model into position in order to get 4 + base size" of additional range and rolling to hit your own low DEF model in the back arc instead of their high DEF model in cover/concealment, while also ignoring anti shooting tech like Shield Guard, Sac Pawn and Shield Guard, and not generating souls and corpses or triggering anything else that requires an attack. And it doesn't matter how many attacks you take or how squishy your actual target model is because they are completely immune to said attacks. So if you are shooting to get reliable shots, you don't want your model in melee with your opponents model and pretty much all the lightning immune models are 1" or 2" reach. So you are actually generally only going 2" to 3" into a unit, which isnt that far if deployed correctly. Yes, it ignores a bunch of stuff, but its also generally less. Valuable than just shooting into the enemy unit. It can be worth it with nemo 3, but that is generally it. I play a lot of electroleap cygnar and it just is never an efficient use of a model. I mean, it's cygnar. How often will my problem. Be that I can't hit an enemy model?
|
|
|
Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 28, 2017 9:41:59 GMT
I still don't get hew electrically immune proccing leaps is stupid. Its a cool strat but its very rarely worth it. I meant thematically, rather than mechanically. The fluff specifically has this trick happening, so the thematic argument doesn't really hold.
|
|
princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
|
Post by princeraven on Jun 28, 2017 10:41:01 GMT
I mean, it's cygnar. How often will my problem. Be that I can't hit an enemy model? How about when your opponent's DEF 16 Stealth caster is sitting in cover with a Shield Guard nearby?
|
|