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Post by Aegis on Jun 28, 2017 10:48:20 GMT
I mean, it's cygnar. How often will my problem. Be that I can't hit an enemy model? How about when your opponent's DEF 16 Stealth caster is sitting in cover with a Shield Guard nearby? How often you have to deal with the situation you describe?
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Jun 28, 2017 10:48:45 GMT
He's been around since Mk 1. What's more, he was in the original Prime. Just like the Choir. The Squire is a much later addition. In the beginning, the Journeyman was Cygnar's only solo. Like Khador's only solo was the Manhunter, Menoth's was the Paladin and Cryx' was the Skarlock. Ahh history.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 28, 2017 11:05:56 GMT
So if you are shooting to get reliable shots, you don't want your model in melee with your opponents model and pretty much all the lightning immune models are 1" or 2" reach. So you are actually generally only going 2" to 3" into a unit, which isnt that far if deployed correctly. Yes, it ignores a bunch of stuff, but its also generally less. Valuable than just shooting into the enemy unit. It can be worth it with nemo 3, but that is generally it. I play a lot of electroleap cygnar and it just is never an efficient use of a model. I mean, it's cygnar. How often will my problem. Be that I can't hit an enemy model? Happens a lot with unnerfed Stormlances because they are low RAT and it's easy to hit a stormpod or other sacrificial model to clear out half of a unit. I imagine it will be less of a problem when most (only excepting Laddermore?) of the stuff with eLeap on ranged attacks will have boostable attacks anyway. Also, since you bring up the engaged issue. AoE's have it much worse in this respect because they're usually 3", sometimes 4", rarely 5" blasts, meaning if you have, or are up against, 2" reach and want to clip something, you're probably in melee, yet AoE's were mentioned multiple times as "being the same thing" to disjunction the argument Now, again, I don't think Cygnar is necessarily overpowered, but they are extremely strong and often frustrating to play against and electroleap is a big part of this.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 28, 2017 11:35:52 GMT
ok, so lets say for arguments sake that e-leap and lightning generator could no longer proc off of lightning immune models, what would Cygnar be left with to deal with Stealth infantry at range.
Direct Shots
Siege 1 - Mage Sight/ Ground Pounder Caine 3 - Mage Sight Sloan - Field Marshall True Sight Caine 2 - True Sight Haley 3 - True Sight
Ace - True Sight Triumph - Arcane Precision (maybe True Sight post CID)
Gun Mage Captain Adept - True Sight Gun Mage Rifleman - Arcane Precision Stormsmith Stormcallers
AOEs
Grenadier Hurricane Avenger Reliant
Trencher Cannon Commando Grenades Stormsmith Grenades Trencher Rifle Grenades
Trench Buster Gibbs
Sprays
Commando Scattergunners Trencher Master Gunners Arlan
Other
Lightning Pod Thunderhead Pulse Minuteman Flak Field
Do you think that is enough compelling options?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 28, 2017 11:40:08 GMT
Wait is your argument that those options dont count?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 28, 2017 11:42:01 GMT
Wait is your argument that those options dont count? Stop conjecting and read my post, it is pretty self explanatory what I am asking
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Post by Morganstern on Jun 28, 2017 11:49:16 GMT
ok, so lets say for arguments sake that e-leap and lightning generator could no longer proc off of lightning immune models, what would Cygnar be left with to deal with Stealth infantry at range.
Direct Shots
Siege 1 - Mage Sight/ Ground Pounder Caine 3 - Mage Sight Sloan - Field Marshall True Sight Caine 2 - True Sight Haley 3 - True Sight
Ace - True Sight Triumph - Arcane Precision (maybe True Sight post CID)
Gun Mage Captain Adept - True Sight Gun Mage Rifleman - Arcane Precision Stormsmith Stormcallers
AOEs
Grenadier Hurricane Avenger Reliant
Trencher Cannon Commando Grenades Stormsmith Grenades Trencher Rifle Grenades
Trench Buster Gibbs
Sprays
Commando Scattergunners Trencher Master Gunners Arlan
Other
Lightning Pod Thunderhead Pulse Minuteman Flak Field
Do you think that is enough compelling options?
Yes. Stealth is a defensive tech that a unit pays points to have. Your army should be limited in how it deals with it.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 28, 2017 11:52:26 GMT
ok, so lets say for arguments sake that e-leap and lightning generator could no longer proc off of lightning immune models, what would Cygnar be left with to deal with Stealth infantry at range.
Direct Shots
Siege 1 - Mage Sight/ Ground Pounder Caine 3 - Mage Sight Sloan - Field Marshall True Sight Caine 2 - True Sight Haley 3 - True Sight
Ace - True Sight Triumph - Arcane Precision (maybe True Sight post CID)
Gun Mage Captain Adept - True Sight Gun Mage Rifleman - Arcane Precision Stormsmith Stormcallers
AOEs
Grenadier Hurricane Avenger Reliant
Trencher Cannon Commando Grenades Stormsmith Grenades Trencher Rifle Grenades
Trench Buster Gibbs
Sprays
Commando Scattergunners Trencher Master Gunners Arlan
Other
Lightning Pod Thunderhead Pulse Minuteman Flak Field
Do you think that is enough compelling options?
Yes. Stealth is a defensive tech that a unit pays points to have. Your army should be limited in how it deals with it. So even with the proposed change to e-leap and Lightning generator not proccing off of lightning immune models, is the list still too long? if you think yes what else should be taken off of it?
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 28, 2017 11:53:00 GMT
ok, so lets say for arguments sake that e-leap and lightning generator could no longer proc off of lightning immune models, what would Cygnar be left with to deal with Stealth infantry at range.
Direct Shots
Siege 1 - Mage Sight/ Ground Pounder Caine 3 - Mage Sight Sloan - Field Marshall True Sight Caine 2 - True Sight Haley 3 - True Sight
Ace - True Sight Triumph - Arcane Precision (maybe True Sight post CID)
Gun Mage Captain Adept - True Sight Gun Mage Rifleman - Arcane Precision Stormsmith Stormcallers
AOEs
Grenadier Hurricane Avenger Reliant
Trencher Cannon Commando Grenades Stormsmith Grenades Trencher Rifle Grenades
Trench Buster Gibbs
Sprays
Commando Scattergunners Trencher Master Gunners Arlan
Other
Lightning Pod Thunderhead Pulse Minuteman Flak Field
Do you think that is enough compelling options?
The cygnar master race has spoken obviously every model needs the noisy rule that the patrol dog will have Also i think you forgot a trick shot somewhere in there.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 28, 2017 12:26:05 GMT
AoEs are accepted as part of the game because every faction has some access to them E-leaps are almost entirely a Cygnar only ability. When it comes to shooting your own model Cygnar is the only faction to have that ability and NOT HAVE THE TARGET DIE. That is something that AoEs do not share. That part sets e-leaps apart. Circle can also do this; it's very niche and involves some leveraging of "bad" options while ignoring the faction's better ways to clear infantry, but Cygnar ain't the only choice for this tactic (see the Stormlord, Kreuger). You defeated your own argument. I said "almost entirely" I know that Krueger exists. But that's a single warlock, a below average gargantuan, and 1 solo (Tharn Shaman). But they are not nearly as great at it as Cygnar.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 28, 2017 12:38:15 GMT
I mean, it's cygnar. How often will my problem. Be that I can't hit an enemy model? How about when your opponent's DEF 16 Stealth caster is sitting in cover with a Shield Guard nearby? Hurricane or Force Hammer (Haley 3) or Force Hammer (Nemo 3) or Force Hammer (Siege 1) or Thunderstrike (Caine 1) or Caine 3 feat + mage Sight or Kara Guided Fire and True Sight or Patrol Dog to remove stealth or Strider for +2 to hit for electrical attacks. Its Cygnar, we shoot guys who don't want to be shot. Yes, people can make it hard but in general I've yet to find many times where mass bounce off a spark node is a better option than doing something else.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 28, 2017 12:41:17 GMT
Should Eyeless Sight be changed on Legion beasts so it no longer ignores Stealth? when you face Legion that Stealth that you have had to pay points for is redundant against all of their ranged beasts
I personally do not have problem with Eyeless Sight, as it is a faction defining rule, and just something you have to accept when you face Legion.
I would argue that in the case of the technologically advanced Lightning faction, it is just something you have to accept when facing them
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 28, 2017 13:34:27 GMT
Octaviusmaximus
One game I used a placed stormpod and a firefly to kill pEiryss behind a forest. Immediately after, I walked a storm lance to within 4" of 2 kayazy assassins. My other lances shot their buddy. The e-leaps easily dispatched the kayazy.
Generally the e-leap trick is good for models that are stealthed, have real good defense, or are placed out of normal shooting threat. It's a strong tactic.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 28, 2017 14:45:17 GMT
Should Eyeless Sight be changed on Legion beasts so it no longer ignores Stealth? when you face Legion that Stealth that you have had to pay points for is redundant against all of their ranged beasts I personally do not have problem with Eyeless Sight, as it is a faction defining rule, and just something you have to accept when you face Legion. I would argue that in the case of the technologically advanced Lightning faction, it is just something you have to accept when facing them
Problem is the game gets reduced to ARM/Boxes if enough of what you face ignore the other options.
Relating to Stealth
- It's a defensive ability that melee tottaly ignores so no use against melee armies - Everyone ignores it within 5" - Legion mostly ignores it due to list construction and beast focus so it's no good there - True Sight, Flare, Mage Sight, etc... - Solos hand out abilities to ignore it ranging from 1 models to anyone and everyone - Sprays - AOEs - Bounces - Within 5" is the same as Charge+2"reach so it still has na edge against melee troops.
Does an ability so central to model construction and something that doesn't reduce the game to threat (SPD/RNG) and actually opens up options besides ARM/Boxes need so much counter? It's existence alone makes a case for combined arms.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 28, 2017 14:46:46 GMT
Octaviusmaximus One game I used a placed stormpod and a firefly to kill pEiryss behind a forest. Immediately after, I walked a storm lance to within 4" of 2 kayazy assassins. My other lances shot their buddy. The e-leaps easily dispatched the kayazy. Generally the e-leap trick is good for models that are stealthed, have real good defense, or are placed out of normal shooting threat. It's a strong tactic. Points of models abilities used: Stormwall: 39 Firefly: 8 2 Storm Lances: Roughly 8. Also, chance of Firefly failure = 50% (needing a 7 to kill Eyriss with a pow 10). Why is this OP? How is it different to hitting a pod with an AOE and then drifting AOE's over Kayazy? More control, less top end damage. AOE's can be boosted and can also hit more targets than a lot of leaps when your opponents have positioned their models close together.
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